6.5 Grendel on it's own merits

[tdbru]

I think I've read on this subforum or a couple of the other subforums, statements that say that w/o the AR platform, the 6.5 Grendel would cease to exist as one would go to the 6.5 CM, 260Rem, 6.5x55, 6.5 PRC, or other higher performance 6.5s.

While it's true that the 6.5 Grendel is of lower performance than many/most of the other 6.5s out there, there are a couple of things about the 6.5 Grendel that tend to get overlooked in comparison to larger 6.5 cartridges.

a. recoil. lets face it, lower mv and smaller powder charges for the same bullet and rifle weight means less recoil. one may or may not care about this, but there are situations that makes the lower recoil very attractive. training new shooters comes to mind. also no matter how macho we are, it's been documented over and over again that people shoot better with less recoil. So hitting where you're aiming with the Grendel is better than missing the target with the 6.5-300 Wby every day.

b. and the lower performance also comes due to about 1/2 or less of the powder charges used in comparison to the higher performance 6.5s. If you reload and currently struggle to find powder, using less per round right now may seem like a good thing.

c. for the same barrel length, with the lower chamber pressure and smaller powder charges, you get a lower muzzle blast/report. muzzle blast noise can be an issue. Some landowners may let you hunt on their land if you're round is not so loud it's obnoxious. of course for you folks with cans on the end that might be a moot point as well.

d. the lower chamber pressure and petite powder appetite results in very long barrel life. Go look at the barrel life of the 6.5-300 Wby. Ultimate performance. replace barrel by 500 rounds or so. the 6.5 Grendel barrel life is probably close to 10K or more. Throat erosion should be pretty low with the lower chamber pressure and petite powder capacity. Many competitive shooters using 6.5CM are replacing barrels 1 or 2x a year. Having a barrel last a long time at top accuracy always is a good thing in my book. Yours too probably.

e. lower chamber pressure typically results in higher number of reloads per case before the case gives out. loose primer pockets, etc. If you don't reload, a moot point, but when you see a note on the reloading subforum that xxxx has 6.5 G brass for sale and by the time you hit the link it's already all gone, getting 10+ reloads out of the brass you do have is much better than 2 or 3 for sure.

f. lower weight/smaller volume for the ammo. probably a small issue, but, on a backpack hunt when you're counting oz, 5 to 10 rounds of Grendel will be lighter and take up less room in the pack than the bigger 6.5s.

So yes, the bigger cased 6.5s do have more performance of course, but even aside from the AR platform, there are a lot of features of the 6.5 Grendel that hold good merit all on their own.

at least that's my opinion.
-tdbru

[CJW]

Good post tdbru.

The Grendel is really a boutique caliber…….

The one and only reason I ever considered a Grendel, particularly in an AR platform is …..

Well actually there are two reasons……the first one is Double Naught Spy………I started looking at his videos and they were so entertaining that I knew I had to get one. DNS helped me with the purchase of the gun and purchase of the thermal optics. I’ve also had an opportunity to meet him face to face in Texas.

The other member that was a big help is LRRPF52…….I’ve had a lot of questions for both of these guys

52 helped buy a pistol for my wife last week…

And Klem……Klem is a damn rocket scientist…….he is my go to for reloading information

With a moderator named Blunt Force Trauma, how can you go wrong …

The only reason I shoot a Grendel at all is because of the members of this group…

I am a very shallow and self centered person that has to spend money to feel good about myself…….
The boys mentioned in the above post have driven me into financial ruin!!!!

It’s 03:06 EST…….just got in from hunting…..

Live Big,
Chuck

[Billinthedesert]

Great thread and great answer, Chuck.

[LR1955]

TB:

I doubt the Grendel is going anywhere soon. I do not see anything even similar on the market.

I see it as the most ideal Scout Rifle cartridge readily available on the market today.

If someone comes out with a decent Scout Rifle frame and stock for a Grendel, I would go for it. I accept that I will probably ditch the factory barrel but to me that would be a small price to pay.

The thing is this, the stock would have to fit me. Skelton stocks I do not care for because they never fit well. You would be amazed at how barrel length becomes a non issue if the stock is made to fit.

Still, I would keep it down to carbine length. Bolt gun, ten shot detachable magazine would also be fine but twenty would be better.

An ideal cartridge for this sort of frame to be used for general blasting and hunting.

If I had a problem with a rifle, I would contact LRRP-52 and Montana too. They are very skilled.

LR-55

[LRRPF52]

My first 6.5s were .260 Remington, both gas guns, one of which I still have. That was a major step up from .308 for me in competition and LR shooting.

I got interested in Grendel years before that, but waited 5 years to see where it was going and to let any kinks get worked out. I had brass for 6.5 Grendel before I ever ordered my AA barrel/bolt combo.

One of the main differences I notice is being able to stay on-target inside the scope with very minimal muzzle blast, recoil, and most-overlooked: torque-induced loss of sight picture.

With larger propellant column rifles pushing heavier bullets, you will notice on high-speed camera that the rifle twists counter to the direction of the rifling, which is almost always RH twist.

The rifle therefore twists to the left around the axis of the barrel. This is especially true on lightweight firearms, including short barrel 300 Whisper/Blackout pistols and SBRs.

You really see it with .308 light rifles, magnum mountain rifles, but don’t see it much at all with .223 and 5.56 blasters since there’s almost no projectile mass.

I also notice a huge difference in energy on-target between 6.5 Grendel and 5.56 carbines, where Grendel hits with a very audible “whack", and 5.56 makes a little “tink” when talking 300yds and further.

As a shooter, you’re able to see immediate target feedback if shooting steel or game.

Then when you look at the projectile selection and factory ammo options, it sells itself.

One thing that is really missing is factory rifle options from the big box stores. I see Alexander Arms carbines and pistols at local gun stores, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen AR-15s chambered in 6.5 Grendel at Sportsman’s, Cabella’s, or Scheel’s.

There’s a market opportunity there since those stores cater to the hunting crowd for long guns.

They sell plenty of Grendel ammo, but occasional Howa bolt guns and no AR-15s.

A lot of that has to do with people building their own Grendels, but I’d like to see more factory rifles in the big stores.

[meta_gabbro]

Bearing in mind that I'm a primarily a hunter, the couple times that I've been asked why I like the cartridge so much I usually wind up comparing it to the 243. Folks here are making loads in 18" barrels that match classic 243 loads out of 24" barrels, with 25-35% less powder, and in smaller and lighter guns. It's cheaper to practice with than a 243, and it's less of a barrel burner. I understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea, especially the if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it crowd that'll stick to the tried and true standbys, but for folks who appreciate effective cartridges in handy guns it really deserves a hard look.

[LRRPF52]

Yup. It covers down on that space where .250 Savage, 6.5x54 Mannlicher, .30-30 Winchester, and .243 Winchester are typically used by hunters, while also performing where .308 Winchester did for target work, but fits in the AR-15 receiver set with minimal parts differences.

Barre life is better than .308 Winchester, since there is less powder to convert, 30 degree shoulder, and lower chamber pressure.

[Modoc]

I found the Grendel when my dad asked me to get him a lightweight, compact deer rifle that wouldn’t recoil like his UL 7-08 and 308. He mentioned the 223 and 300 Whisper/Blackout. After research including talking to 4 friends who have the G, I went that route. I couldn’t bare the thought of re-barreling a Sako A2 action and doing the work on it to accept the Grendel. Luckily I found a How at my LGS and am now waiting for a stock and Bottom metal from Oregunsmithing since the factory stock and bottom metal just didn’t light the fire.

It is one of the most accurate rifles we own with Hammer Hunter bullets, giving multiple sub 1/2 MOA groups off of the bench.

Since no game will be shot with it beyond 300 yards, it makes a great package.

[Stinky Coyote]

I'm Canadian so no AR's here, I was all about this cartridge about 2005 when I found out about it and studied ballistics, had to wait until CZ came out with about 12 years later as I only do factory stuff/ammo etc. Have been hunting with it every since (2017/18). 100% this cartridge stands alone without a specific platform...bolt action makes just as much sense as AR imo. It's basically a 3/4 scale .308 running 168's with 55% less recoil, same sd, bc, and impact velocities/trajectory to 500 yards. It hangs with a .243 to a few hundred yards then starts to walk away from the .243 after that (factory to factory) and recoils less. You can't do more with 30 grains of powder than the 6.5g and 123 eld-m combo, overachiever, zero fat, maybe one of the most versatile combo's on the planet when considering all shooters, all disciplines/uses, life, cost etc.

[Double Naught Spy]

I think I've read on this subforum or a couple of the other subforums, statements that say that w/o the AR platform, the 6.5 Grendel would cease to exist as one would go to the 6.5 CM, 260Rem, 6.5x55, 6.5 PRC, or other higher performance 6.5.

If ARs went away, 6.5 Grendel might not cease to exist, but its popularity would decline substantially. That isn't apt to happen, however. If ARs went away, I don't see a whole lot of manufacturers clambering to make other types of guns to fill the void for 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel has been all that popular with non-AR platforms.

Now, had the statement been that 6.5 Grendel would never have existed without the AR15, I would have to say that the claim is correct. I don't know, maybe somebody somewhere would have come up with a non-AR15-based chamber cartridge that uses the same amount of powder and gets the exact same performance. People are wildcatting all sorts of cartridges and all claim some sort of superiority over existing cartridges, LOL. However, it would likely have been called something else.

[Stinky Coyote]

If ARs went away, 6.5 Grendel might not cease to exist, but its popularity would decline substantially. That isn't apt to happen, however. If ARs went away, I don't see a whole lot of manufacturers clambering to make other types of guns to fill the void for 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel has been all that popular with non-AR platforms.

Now, had the statement been that 6.5 Grendel would never have existed without the AR15, I would have to say that the claim is correct. I don't know, maybe somebody somewhere would have come up with a non-AR15-based chamber cartridge that uses the same amount of powder and gets the exact same performance. People are wildcatting all sorts of cartridges and all claim some sort of superiority over existing cartridges, LOL. However, it would likely have been called something else.

Not an argument to you but just adding to these possibles brought up.

Can we imagine America without AR's? LOL so that whole argument goes away. And Grendel was developed to improve on AR 5.56 downrange performance. So it was inevitable as that was always a need and desire, someone was going to keep working on solving this and provide a 21st century response.

Here's another take, the CZ 527 in 7.62x39, the Ruger m77 boat paddle 7.62x39. There have been bolt guns in AK-47 cartridge for a long time and also bolt action .223's (.222's etc.) for a long time, they all go away without AR? no AR's and few AK's.

There have always been AR Length cartridges or a micro action length class in bolt actions and there's been an evolution in ballistics and gear over the tail end of the 20th century and into the 21st century so all areas, action types/lengths, have seen 21st century ballistic options come available. Unavoidable that the 6.5 Grendel came out, AR or not.

[Bully]

The 6PPC has been around a lonnnnnnnngg time. The Grendel has a lot in common with it. Would the Grendel "survive" without the AR platform? My guess is that it would. However it would have much less popularity and would be a handloader only cartridge for the most part. The AR platform keeps folks in the factory ammo world.
Remember, most folks that shoot only buy at big box, both their guns and their ammo. People on forums like this are in the minority.



https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-...by-speedy/

[Dino11]

Grendel was on my list of must have... but then the announcement of the 6mm Arc came about. I did my home work and settled for the smaller caliber. The ARC does everything the Grendel does and a little more. Better velocity, that makes up for the lower weight bullet, longer range with less drop off of velocity due to the higher BC. Way more accurate. I have shot it out to a mile with 109 and 115 grain bullets with very good success. Hold over at a mile is 32 Mills compared to over 60 with the Grendel.

You can take down medium sized game with it, The deer in Ohio are not the little dog sized deer you find in some states, they are rather large and drop dead right in their tracks with this round out to 250+ yards. Shot placement is a big thing here, but the round is extremely accurate and one of the flatest shooting bullets in it's category.

Barrel life is very good as well, very much similar to 5.56. To bad only one ammo manufacture makes ammo for it right now, but it is a reloaders round.

[biodsl]

The ARC does everything the Grendel does and a little more.

Popcorn popped.

[Stolivar]

Works great in a cva pistol with a 14 inch barrel

[kmon]

i have been shooting an AR in 6.5 Grendel since shortly after SAAMI adoption and liked the round and what it does hunting but my old self likes to hunt with a boltaction or single shot.

I found this forum when looking to get a boltaction rifle in 6.5 Grendel and wound up going with a CZ527 7.62X39 and having a talented gunsmith do his work on it and turn it into a sub half MOA shooter in Grendel. When I was looking for a smith to do the work on another forum one smith said do not do that you want more power. My reply to that if I want more power than the Grendel I will reach for my 264 Win Mag, 6.5/284 or the old 6.5X54 MS

Out to a little over 400 yards the Grendel has worked well on game for me though I am afraid I might have to do another one, the wife has taken a liking to this one and I am good with that.

[LR1955]

Grendel was on my list of must have... but then the announcement of the 6mm Arc came about. I did my home work and settled for the smaller caliber. The ARC does everything the Grendel does and a little more. Better velocity, that makes up for the lower weight bullet, longer range with less drop off of velocity due to the higher BC. Way more accurate. I have shot it out to a mile with 109 and 115 grain bullets with very good success. Hold over at a mile is 32 Mills compared to over 60 with the Grendel.

You can take down medium sized game with it, The deer in Ohio are not the little dog sized deer you find in some states, they are rather large and drop dead right in their tracks with this round out to 250+ yards. Shot placement is a big thing here, but the round is extremely accurate and one of the flatest shooting bullets in it's category.

Barrel life is very good as well, very much similar to 5.56. To bad only one ammo manufacture makes ammo for it right now, but it is a reloaders round.

D11:

No one who has shot both cartridges can disagree with you. That said, I can at least find factory loads for the Grendel. Can't say that for the 6 ARC, 6 AR, 6 AR Turbo, etc.

Personally, I would not want to go after feral hogs with a 6 ARC. Sorry but sometimes bigger is better. Also, you don't see the variety of bullets with the 6 mm you do with the 6.5 mm.

I do love my 6 BR in my prone rifle though. Will outperform a Grendel by a huge margin at distance.

LR-55

[biodsl]

D11:

No one who has shot both cartridges can disagree with you..(SNIP)..Personally, I would not want to go after feral hogs with a 6 ARC. Sorry but sometimes bigger is better.

LOL, LR! Didn't you just disagree with him? The 6ARC is an awesome cartridge. The external ballistics and trajectory are incredible. But if I had to choose one for a woods gun, it would be the Grendel all day long.

[LR1955]

LOL, LR! Didn't you just disagree with him? The 6ARC is an awesome cartridge. The external ballistics and trajectory are incredible. But if I had to choose one for a woods gun, it would be the Grendel all day long.

BD:

Negative -- not disagreeing with him. My reasoning comes from shooting a Grendel in HP for a year or so and seeing my scores plummet. Switched to a 6 AR and my scores went back up immediately.

Given the conditions he stated, I won't disagree with him.

Just note that he did identify the lack of factory loads for the 6 ARC as a problem. It is a handloading proposition and a cartridge primarily intended for PRC matches. Adapted to hunting? Sure can with a decent 6mm hunting bullet.

The choice of a round of ammo for hunting is individual. I am not necessarily of the old school where bigger is better but for feral hogs I would go for a bigger bullet than 6mm.

It is not an easy task to get a cartridge into the market. The Grendel has done really well for itself because it performs in an AR-15 and has a variety of bullets and now a variety of factory loads.

LR-55

[LRRPF52]

I’ve RO’d for a lot of matches and LR events where at least 1/3 of the competitors were shooting 6mms, usually Dashers, 6 Creed, 6x47L, 6 XC, etc.

All of those cases have more gas in the tank than the 6mm AR or ARC, and therefore faster mv with the same bullets.

A big challenge with them is spotting impacts once you start getting 650-700yds and farther, depending on TGT size, hanging method, and wind conditions (speed, direction relative to observers).

They’re easy to hit with, but impacts aren’t as visible or audible.

123gr and 130gr 6.5mm impact the steel with a more visible and audible feedback, but definitely aren’t as flat as the 105-108gr 6mms.

If you go with a 28” Grendel, you can start to see some benefits downrange next to 6mms when it comes to impact.

You’ll be hard-pressed to burn out a barrel with 6.5 Grendel.

Everything is a trade-off of some sort.