I am putting together an AR in Grendel with a 16 inch barrel. I am trying to keep it short, easy to maneuver and relatively light. I am toying with the idea of either a 2-7X32 scope in an Aero lightweight mount, or a red dot with a 3X tip off magnifier. Looking at the ballistics tables I don't see myself ever taking more than a 200 yard shot with this rig, although I suppose I could push it to 300.
3X not enough? Something about a magnified red dot that is a bad idea?
trubulator Wrote:I am putting together an AR in Grendel with a 16 inch barrel. I am trying to keep it short, easy to maneuver and relatively light. I am toying with the idea of either a 2-7X32 scope in an Aero lightweight mount, or a red dot with a 3X tip off magnifier. Looking at the ballistics tables I don't see myself ever taking more than a 200 yard shot with this rig, although I suppose I could push it to 300.
3X not enough? Something about a magnified red dot that is a bad idea?
TB:
Big question is what will you be shooting and under what conditions.
If it is hogs that are running amok in the Okefenokee where I used to hunt, a six or eight minute red dot without a magnifier would do better than a magnified optic.
If it is stationary steel targets or game in open areas where you will be shooting to 300 then a 2 - 7 or higher would probably be a better choice.
I have not heard many reports from guys who have used the magnifiers in front of the dot sights. I will say this much from using clip on NVD's. The heat from the barrel will fog the lenses if you shoot it in rain or in real damp conditions. Also I would think that such magnifiers would have major problems with parallax but that is just a hypothesis of mine.
09-28-2022, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 09-28-2022, 07:51 PM by Harpoon1.)
There must be an obvious answer but, why cant they make a 2 MOA Red Dot, 1x Prism scope? Simply, a 2 MOA dot but, with etched glass? So, its your typical Red Dot but, without any of the Astigmatism or other aging vision issues? And/or, it still works without battery power, at least during the day?
WTF?
I would be a happy man! Might even consider quitting Day drinking! Well, maybe, on a bet!
Harpoon1 Wrote:There must be an obvious answer but, why cant they make a 2 MOA Red Dot, 1x Prism scope? Simply, a 2 MOA dot but, with etched glass? So, its your typical Red Dot but, without any of the Astigmatism or other aging vision issues? And/or, it still works without battery power, at least during the day?
WTF?
I would be a happy man! Might even consider quitting Day drinking! Well, maybe, on a bet!
What's wrong with PA's 1x prism scope? Not a simple red dot reticle, but still a very simple tiny-chevron-in-horseshoe. Checks all your other boxes:
09-29-2022, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 09-29-2022, 12:09 PM by Harpoon1.)
SDW Wrote:What's wrong with PA's 1x prism scope? Not a simple red dot reticle, but still a very simple tiny-chevron-in-horseshoe. Checks all your other boxes:
I have a Gen 1 with the same reticle and thought it was going to be the answer but, I find the Chevron is too fine of an aiming point at 1X! For me and my 62 year old eyes, a simple 2-3 MOA Dot would be better and easier for me to focus on.
That chevron reticle may be a lot better at 3X ! Im tempted to try one those.
Harpoon1 Wrote:I have a Gen 1 with the same reticle and thought it was going to be the answer but, I find the Chevron is too fine of an aiming point at 1X! For me and my 62 year old eyes, a simple 2-3 MOA Dot would be better and easier for me to focus on.
That chevron reticle may be a lot better at 3X ! Im tempted to try one those.
Yeah, I have one of those too. The Gen 1. The little chevron isn't perfectly in focus for me either. Imperfect eyes also. I just put the top of the blurry triangle on the target. It's close enough for what that rifle is intended for. I also have a earlier version of the 3x. Gen 2, non-compact model. It's reticle does have a center dot, which to me is very crisp; l like this reticle overall. But there are a lot of other optical elements around that dot (it's still an ACSS after all). I don't know the size of the center dot; PA doesn't really publish that info with many of the ACSS optics.
Vortex makes a 1x Prism, the Spitfire, which has a 3 MOA center dot. Unfortunately, they stuck two plain rings around the dot for some reason. I don't care for the two rings. But the Spitfire is on sale at Midway for half off at the moment. $150:
09-29-2022, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 09-29-2022, 02:38 PM by Harpoon1.)
SDW Wrote:Yeah, I have one of those too. The Gen 1. The little chevron isn't perfectly in focus for me either. Imperfect eyes also. I just put the top of the blurry triangle on the target. It's close enough for what that rifle is intended for. I also have a earlier version of the 3x. Gen 2, non-compact model. It's reticle does have a center dot, which to me is very crisp; l like this reticle overall. But there are a lot of other optical elements around that dot (it's still an ACSS after all). I don't know the size of the center dot; PA doesn't really publish that info with many of the ACSS optics.
Vortex makes a 1x Prism, the Spitfire, which has a 3 MOA center dot. Unfortunately, they stuck two plain rings around the dot for some reason. I don't care for the two rings. But the Spitfire is on sale at Midway for half off at the moment. $150:
Thanks for heads up but, I dont care for the two rings either. Bummer.
Ive also got a PA Gen 1 5x Prism with the earliest version of the ACSS, fixed center dot, combat horseshoe with mover dots, and a tree down to 800 with 10 mph wind dots!
I like it but its huge and heavy compared to the Gen 2 stuff.
10-01-2022, 04:25 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2022, 04:44 AM by Tx264.)
I'm with yall.I'm old and my eyes suck.
If you need magnification and an illuminated dot,Leopold used to make a 2 7 firedot.If you can live with 3× on the bottom end
Mark ar 3×9×40. 12oz
Vxr patrol 3×9×40 15oz
If you don't need the dot.
Vortex razor hd lh
1.5×8×32 13oz
2×10×40. 15oz
Swfa 2.5×10×32 9.5oz
10-01-2022, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2022, 04:37 AM by lazyengineer.)
kmon Wrote:With my eyes a good quality 2-7 any day of the week and twice on Sunday
What models do you like? 2-7 is a power range of interest to me, as 2x is low enough for snap field shooting and even CQB, while 7X lets you get out there pretty good. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of models offered. While at times you can see 1-8X, which I suppose tends to make the 2-7 market a bit light. So I'm curious what you've found. I'd love to find a light weight FFP unit with a mil-dot grid at full mag, and a large fast viewable outer reticle at low range. The 2.5-10X Primary Arms Griffen FFP scope is a personal favorite, as it's one of very few FFP that does well on the low end, as well as the magnified end. It's also heavier than a truck. For some systems, a 2-7x would suit my needs nicely; but I just can't find one that interests me. The only ones I can find are simple Duplex models made for .22's and the like.
I have a Redfield Revolution 2-7x 33mm. It's a nice little scope. Too bad they stopped making them. Glass was very good for the money, IMO. You might find a used one though if you look around.
Vortex offers a 2-7x 35mm Diamondback. Just 13.7 oz. And they have a 2-7x Crossfire model as well, if you're on a really tight budget.
lazyengineer Wrote:What models do you like? 2-7 is a power range of interest to me, as 2x is low enough for snap field shooting and even CQB, while 7X lets you get out there pretty good. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of models offered. While at times you can see 1-8X, which I suppose tends to make the 2-7 market a bit light. So I'm curious what you've found. I'd love to find a light weight FFP unit with a mil-dot grid at full mag, and a large fast viewable outer reticle at low range. The 2.5-10X Primary Arms Griffen FFP scope is a personal favorite, as it's one of very few FFP that does well on the low end, as well as the magnified end. It's also heavier than a truck. For some systems, a 2-7x would suit my needs nicely; but I just can't find one that interests me. The only ones I can find are simple Duplex models made for .22's and the like.
I have a few as that is my main hunting scope power for most of the hunting I do.
Favorite that is no longer made Kahles that I can and have used 22 cal bullet hole in a target as an aiming point.
Several Nikons, good scopes just no longer made.
Leupold Firedot is a pretty good one with center red dot but not too bright to affect vision like a lot are at night or dawn and dusk.
Vortex, have a few PSTs that are ok but not as clear as the ones above.
an old Burris Short mag scope stays on my 350 Remington Magnum
I have had a 2.5 to 10 set at the bottom end when my one "long" opening a coyote stepped out in. Quick shot with the Grendel and dead yote at 237 yards. I have killed hogs at out to just over 400 yards with a 2X7 Nikon on the Grendel as well. Learn your scope and holds on game with it and it can be done through practice.
The Kahles stays on one of my favorite rifles a Remington 788 in 7mm-08. I have used that on shots on deer and hogs to about 350 yards all one shot kills so far.
My first rifle scope back in 79 was a Weaver V7W 2-7 wide view. Unfortunately it lost its seal on a whitetai hunt one rainy day in Mississippi. Deer came through close by and when I looked through the scope it was almost half full of water, took the 40ish yard shot and killed the deer, last shot fired with that scope in use. Went to a 3X9 scope on it but did not like as well so put anothe 2X7 on it when I got the Kahles used.
You could say I like 2X7 scopes
My eyes do not play well with any of the red dots I have tried for years I would get a starburst, that is gone after 5 eye surgeries for the most part but still get distortion tailing off to one side with the red dot at least with my dominate eye. So I much prefer scopes.
kmon Wrote:I have a few as that is my main hunting scope power for most of the hunting I do.
Favorite that is no longer made Kahles that I can and have used 22 cal bullet hole in a target as an aiming point.
Several Nikons, good scopes just no longer made.
Leupold Firedot is a pretty good one with center red dot but not too bright to affect vision like a lot are at night or dawn and dusk.
Vortex, have a few PSTs that are ok but not as clear as the ones above.
an old Burris Short mag scope stays on my 350 Remington Magnum
I have had a 2.5 to 10 set at the bottom end when my one "long" opening a coyote stepped out in. Quick shot with the Grendel and dead yote at 237 yards. I have killed hogs at out to just over 400 yards with a 2X7 Nikon on the Grendel as well. Learn your scope and holds on game with it and it can be done through practice.
The Kahles stays on one of my favorite rifles a Remington 788 in 7mm-08. I have used that on shots on deer and hogs to about 350 yards all one shot kills so far.
My first rifle scope back in 79 was a Weaver V7W 2-7 wide view. Unfortunately it lost its seal on a whitetai hunt one rainy day in Mississippi. Deer came through close by and when I looked through the scope it was almost half full of water, took the 40ish yard shot and killed the deer, last shot fired with that scope in use. Went to a 3X9 scope on it but did not like as well so put anothe 2X7 on it when I got the Kahles used.
You could say I like 2X7 scopes
My eyes do not play well with any of the red dots I have tried for years I would get a starburst, that is gone after 5 eye surgeries for the most part but still get distortion tailing off to one side with the red dot at least with my dominate eye. So I much prefer scopes.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I agree and share your take. I imagine we are of the same line of thought that the appeal of 6.5 Grendel is the maximization of power and performance capable within the light and handy AR15 rifle frame. It is a remarkable round, and one day I'd love to meet Bill Alexander to get his story on not just the development, but also the far more difficult task of successful commercialization - it's a very cool round.
To topic, being an optimized size&weight to performance package, IMHO benefits from an equally optimized optics package, to get the most out of it's CQB capability and longer range capability at the same time. It's a remarkable round that's fantastic for AR15 run and gun, and then drop down and 600 yard engagement, and highly effective at doing stuff when it gets there. At present, I run either a light 2.5X CQB scope that's fixed and it's a very good field glass, that easily runs out to 25-200 yards very well, and I've run out to 500 yards, but stuff is a bit small as you might guess then; it won't really give the full potential of the destance capability of 6.5 Grendel. So I also run a 2.5-10X scope on a 20". It's great for 600 yard shooting and even 1000 yard, but it's also heavy. The glass goes to 2.5X and has the same 2.5X reticle as my fixed 2.5X CQB rig does, which is handy. But it's also so heavy, that it doesn't really give the full potential of 6.5 Grendel being a light-weight handy weapon system package.
The 2-7X glass has the potential to be the in-between compromise to allow a light package that gives a broader span of usage. From what I can tell, 2-7's are from a former era, where they are all SFP with simple cross hair reticle. After spending some time on gong-ranges and running Strelok pro, which gives overlay of impact points on an image of your scope reticle and it's drop markings, I'm kind of hooked on that concept now. I can't find a light weight 2-7X with FFP and a drop reticle today. But the quest continues!
Note, they do have 1-6x FFP scopes with such, and I guess remain best option right now if one wants a drop grid to index off of at distance. But to date, most of them seem heavy, and have tiny objective lens, which gives me a doubt for dusk light gathering capability, which is the most imporant time of the day in field scope usage, in my own usage of such at least. This is one reason I like the 2-7x package, is most tend to have a larger light gathering piece of glass in the front.
So! I keep looking; and much appreciate your extensive reply sir!
Putting the Firedot Tactical Milling reticle in it would have been a scope I could have lusted after.
My 2-7 is an older Vortex Viper (pre-Diamondback and Crossfire) with a Deadhold BDC reticle. It currently resides on a CZ 527 Grendel. This older reticle used dots to note 4.5, 7 and 11 MOA of elevation. The newer reticle uses lines.
I am in full agreement that a high quality 2-7 with a simple ranging reticle could have a following.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19172[/ATTACH]
Paul Peloquin
Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?
Putting the Firedot Tactical Milling reticle in it would have been a scope I could have lusted after.
My 2-7 is an older Vortex Viper (pre-Diamondback and Crossfire) with a Deadhold BDC reticle. It currently resides on a CZ 527 Grendel. This older reticle used dots to note 4.5, 7 and 11 MOA of elevation. The newer reticle uses lines.
I am in full agreement that a high quality 2-7 with a simple ranging reticle could have a following.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19172[/ATTACH]
I have always said that Leupold 2x7 is the best scope/reticle/weight for a 200 yard Grendel hunting rifle.
