Grendel Steelcase Ammo Update

[BluntForceTrauma]

At SHOT Show 2022 I talked with Wolf Ammo and another distributor for Barnaul (who manufacturs 6.5 Grendel steel-case ammo for Wolf, who is the importer).

The Barnaul rep said that the ban on Russian ammo is gonna take effect within 20–24 months, with those with Form 6 import papers already filed being grandfathered in. She was very doubtful about future importation of Russian ammo — even if the political situation changes — because of bureaucratic inertia and political expediency.

The Wolf rep said that the plant is running out of the powder used in their 6.5 Grendel steel-case, and since the import ban is looming, anyway, they'll probably not bother to source more, and supplies could dry up by summer.

So this is problematic.

I went and bit the bullet and bought two cases of Wolf 6.5 Grendel from SGAmmo at — Gawd help me! — $0.66 each (was $0.25 each in its heyday). SWORE to myself that this ammo craziness would pass and there was NO WAY I was gonna be raped by these prices. Well, it's not lookin' good....

Not gonna tell you guys what to do, but the Wolf rep seemed pretty confident this was the end of the road for Russian 6.5 Grendel steel-case for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, chatted with Barnaul themselves directly — not one of their distributors — and they didn't mention anything about shortages or the ban. Not, however, that I would expect them to divulge that kind of thing.

Really need the U.S. ammo industry to step up and find a way — using steel-case or polymer — to manufacture consumable ammo at about $0.25/per.

[biodsl]

Thanks for the info. Sad indeed. I have around 300 rounds that will likely go into a .30cal can with mags. 'Do not open until the end of the world'.

Hornady used to market a steel case 7.62x39 with SST. I wrote them asking for a Grendel version of that. We sure could use it now.

[montana]

Sorry to hear this, looks like more reloading and less high round count practice..

[LRRPF52]

It presents an opportunity for manufacturers in Eastern Europe.

The highest quality steel case ammo for small arms I’ve ever seen is East German 7.62x39 with clean olive green cases.

Right now, all of the ammo plants in Europe can’t keep up with demand so there isn’t much incentive to start a new line in anything other than brass case.

PPU out of Serbia will have a corner on the market for economy brass-cased ammo, followed by Sellier & Bellot in Czechia.

[lazyengineer]

Thanks for the update - this is in many ways a big deal. IMHO, one of the defining appeals to 6.5 G over 6.8 etc, was the ability to shoot a performance calibre round, at about 1/3 - 1/4 the price of brass, if desired. With the elimination of that, that advantage goes away. I was assuming they would be mass producing like crazy. To hear that basically they are already giving up, is terrible news.

And they are right, these things never get reversed - ever. And especially now with Putin's shenanigans.

[Garrett S]

Thank you for making that point. I’ve been struggling between 6.5g and 6.8 spc for my new build. Maybe you have helped me make up my mind.

[BluntForceTrauma]

LE and Garrett, in my opinion, the defining appeal of the 6.5 Grendel over the 6.8 SPC is its all-around performance. It can do everything the 6.8 can, and more besides. The reverse is not true. Having said that, I certainly understand the huge advantage available cheap steel-case ammo gave to the 6.5.

Brass ammo for both 6.5 and 6.8 is gonna be priced comparably, so there's zero price or performance advantage for 6.8.

I don't understand the mentality that says, "Well, if I really had to choose between the two rounds, I'd default to the lesser-performing round with fewer bullet options."

Someone will say, "Well, the 6.8 does everything I need it to do; I don't need the longer range." OK, fine, perfectly valid argument. But one could just as easily say, "The 6.5 does everything I need it to do; I just don't need the longer range." Why default to the more limited performer? Do you think poorer performance means it's cheaper or more readily available?

You don't pay extra for ammo for the added capability. Guns and parts for the extra capability are just as available and cost the same as guns and parts for the lesser performer.

Help me understand what the "struggle" is, and why you consider 6.8 the default rather than the other way around?

The ban on Russian steel-case is gonna affect every platform that currently uses it: 5.56, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x54, 7.62x51. Unless something changes, everybody's gonna be paying comparable prices for brass ammo.

[LRRPF52]

Steel case encouraged more rifle and barrel manufacturers to make parts, which put more Grendels into circulation.

More firearms equals more demand for ammo of all types.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Heard a rumor on AR15.com that Palmetto State Armory (PSA) was going to begin American production of U.S. steel-cased ammunition.

Googled it. (Well, actually I DuckDuckGo'd it, cuz I consider Google the Enemy. )

Gun Digest has an article about it.

Updated with a YouTube VIDEO on the PSA's Russian ammo plans.

[lazyengineer]

LE and Garrett, in my opinion, the defining appeal of the 6.5 Grendel over the 6.8 SPC is its all-around performance. It can do everything the 6.8 can, and more besides. The reverse is not true. Having said that, I certainly understand the huge advantage available cheap steel-case ammo gave to the 6.5.

Brass ammo for both 6.5 and 6.8 is gonna be priced comparably, so there's zero price or performance advantage for 6.8.

I don't understand the mentality that says, "Well, if I really had to choose between the two rounds, I'd default to the lesser-performing round with fewer bullet options."

Someone will say, "Well, the 6.8 does everything I need it to do; I don't need the longer range." OK, fine, perfectly valid argument. But one could just as easily say, "The 6.5 does everything I need it to do; I just don't need the longer range." Why default to the more limited performer? Do you think poorer performance means it's cheaper or more readily available?

You don't pay extra for ammo for the added capability. Guns and parts for the extra capability are just as available and cost the same as guns and parts for the lesser performer.

Help me understand what the "struggle" is, and why you consider 6.8 the default rather than the other way around?

The ban on Russian steel-case is gonna affect every platform that currently uses it: 5.56, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x54, 7.62x51. Unless something changes, everybody's gonna be paying comparable prices for brass ammo.

You are of course correct on all counts. Aside from the cheaper steel ammo, Grendel has the appeal of longer range performance.

6.8 has the appeal of slightly better game-performance at most pragmatic hunting distances, but that advantage (if real at all), is more academic than meaningful. Which is to say essentially any shot taken with a 6.8 that the terminal ballistics of 6.8 made the difference, will also experience the same beneficial result from a 6.5 Grendel in most settings; they are quite close I think. Someone even did a 100 hogs hog-hunt comparison between the two, and found that the 6.8 killed one (1) more hog out of 100 than Grendel, and of course, no way is that not within experimental margin of error anyway. My guess is the flatter trajectory of 6.5 Grendel probably cancels out (if not exceeds), the minor terminal ballistics improvement of a 6.8 dia bullet vs a 6.5 dia bullet.

And (to Grendel credit) the longer range benefits of 6.5 Grendel are real. Somewhat for hunting, with the flatter trajectory and higher energy retention at distance, but really for the gong range, where a 800 -1000+ yard Gong is going to be notably more likely to be hit accurately by Grendel, than 6.8 which is going hard subsonic by then. And as a guy who had (had - **SOB**) access to an area 2000 yard gong range; that was a detail of value to me. In addtion, the Grendel base cartridge 7.62x39, is still in ready supply. Ironically, for reloaders, the Russian ban actually may be a boom, because I would guess the frequency of finding 7.62x39 boxer brass on the ground is likely going to go up. My Grendel loves 7.62x39 brass based ammo, and that stuff is stupid-easy to process into Grendel brass (no annealing, no neck trimming, skip all of that ).

With 6.8, that base brass is always going to be a hard to find exotic. The only other round that uses that base is .224 Valk (that I know of at least?).

Here is what I DO like about 6.8. It's higher pressure and holds more gunpowder. A 6.8 bolt is just going to be a tougher and high pressure rated bolt than a 6.5 Grendel bolt. I think the case body size of 6.5 Grendel is as far as you can go, with very little margin beyond that in the AR15 platform. At first, pushing it to the limit like that created lots of problems with broken bolts, broken extractors, etc. I will say, in 2022, I think manufacturers have just plain gotten better, and Grendel bolts seem to be doing pretty well today. But even with that, the 6.8 Bolt, is just going to be a tougher bolt. I like that.

If I were to decide what cartridge today, starting from scratch, I very probably would stick with 6.5 Grendel, for the longer range ballistics, and I personally consider this my favorite round for the AR-Tactical NRA / CMP High power 600 yard catagory (where you shoot a 20" with mid-power scope from a bipod prone - 20 round strings). But the dirt cheap steel ammo was one of my bullet-list items on why 6.5 Grendel was the obvious ultimate one-and-only gun, such that allowed one to do practice and 3-gun style shooting on-the-cheap still, competing against 5.56 guns, at about the same price-point as cheap 5.56 brass. That's what made Grendel so magical to me, is it was THE one gun for everything gun. Anything you needed a centerfire for, from defence to plinking, to hunting, to targetshooting to precision, in a handy light-weight familiar package, the Grendel was IT. It's a bummer that cool-point is going away, but the rest of the list, as you point out, remains. But what is going away (sort of), is the ability for that 6.5 Grendel rifle to fill the role as all around gun that includes cheap plinker and action shooter gun. Now you have to still include a 5.56 gun, for that role. And if that's the case, it's easier for someone who doesn't really care about >300 yard shots, to select 6.8 over 6.5 Grendel. High pressure rated bolt, and hits slightly harder at closer range. Some cost of ammo operation as Grendel. Me, I want the range and flatter trajectory. Not everybody does.

Personally, I think part of the Genius of Bill Alexander (Man I'd love to meet that guy), was he realized from the start that the route to cheap reliable plinking ammo was a big deal, if he wanted his new idea to reach the critical of mass it needs to be the success he wants it to be. I think he achieved that goal, and this won't be the death of Grendel which is now established. But cheap Wolf Steel was IMHO, essential for the round to gain as much of a foothold as it currently enjoys. FWIW, it's for similar reasons I've nerver really taken 6mm ARC seriously. If I want small diameter fast, for hitting stuff far accuractly, I'll just run something like .224 Valk, which can run high pressure too. If I want terminal ballistics to drop game animals, I'm just not willing to go smaller diameter than 6.5mm, personally; and meanwhile, 6mm ARC is even more exotic than 6.8 is.
There will never be cheap steel 6mm ARC, and nor am I as keen on dropping a free 7.62x39 casings' .311 diameter case mouth all the way down to 6mm. If I want to hit stuff at >500 yard distance game-killing hard, I'll run the 6.5 CM, and actually hit it hard.

Just the postulations of some guy on the internet

[LRRPF52]

Heard a rumor on AR15.com that Palmetto State Armory (PSA) was going to begin American production of U.S. steel-cased ammunition.

Googled it. (Well, actually I DuckDuckGo'd it, cuz I consider Google the Enemy. )

Gun Digest has an article about it.

Updated with a YouTube VIDEO on the PSA's Russian ammo plans.

That’s huge if they do that.

The best steel case I’ve ever seen/owned is East German Soviet times stuff. Super clean OD green cases, immaculate bullets, top quality that rivals a lot of brass-cased ammo.

Just imagine Germans making steel case and what it looks like.

If they could find some of the old East German plant managers and duplicate their processes, that would be ideal.

I persoanlly wouldn’t model anything off how the Russians make things.

[BluntForceTrauma]

That’s huge if they do that.

Trouble is, PSA intends to focus on those cartridges that will protect sales of their Russian rifles: 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 7.62x54.

But a lot of progress is motivated by envy. If the rest of the industry sees PSA capturing 40% of the U.S. market, they might be provoked into starting up steel-case lines of their own.

Only real challenge is American vs Russian labor rates. But with a bit of ingenuity and modern automation....

[myrifle]

Trouble is, PSA intends to focus on those cartridges that will protect sales of their Russian rifles: 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 7.62x54.

But a lot of progress is motivated by envy. If the rest of the industry sees PSA capturing 40% of the U.S. market, they might be provoked into starting up steel-case lines of their own.

Only real challenge is American vs Russian labor rates. But with a bit of ingenuity and modern automation....

I read that thread and the PSA rep that posted on it did say 6.5 grendel is included in their up coming steel cased ammo line.

[VASCAR2]

It’ll be interesting to see if any future US manufactured steel cased ammo uses boxer primers. In WW II one of the largest suppliers of 45 ACP ammunition was the Evansville Chrysler Ammunition plant. This 45 ACP ammo used the head stamp EC with year of production. I’ve shot a lot of 45 ACP reloads out of Evansville Chrysler steel cases which used boxer primers. It might be cheaper to produce steel case ammo using boxer primers instead of the Berdan primers.


I read the US used steel jackets in some 30 caliber ammunition as it was more readily available than brass. I personally have broken decapping pins on Berdan primed 223/5.56 brass cases. It wouldn’t bother me if manufacturers quit using Berdan primers.

[myrifle]

It’ll be interesting to see if any future US manufactured steel cased ammo uses boxer primers. In WW II one of the largest suppliers of 45 ACP ammunition was the Evansville Chrysler Ammunition plant. This 45 ACP ammo used the head stamp EC with year of production. I’ve shot a lot of 45 ACP reloads out of Evansville Chrysler steel cases which used boxer primers. It might be cheaper to produce steel case ammo using boxer primers instead of the Berdan primers.


I read the US used steel jackets in some 30 caliber ammunition as it was more readily available than brass. I personally have broken decapping pins on Berdan primed 223/5.56 brass cases. It wouldn’t bother me if manufacturers quit using Berdan primers.

David frontier use to have a guide online on how too convert steel case Berdan primed over to boxer primed.

He also had a guide on how too resize steel cases as well for reloading.

[BluntForceTrauma]

In one of the discussions online about PSA's upcoming steel-case ammo, I coulda sworn a PSA rep said we'll be "surprised" by the primer used. I take it to mean he's hinting a boxer primer would be used. Although, if we consider steel-case to be a one-shot deal, the primer issue is moot.

[myrifle]

In one of the discussions online about PSA's upcoming steel-case ammo, I coulda sworn a PSA rep said we'll be "surprised" by the primer used. I take it to mean he's hinting a boxer primer would be used. Although, if we consider steel-case to be a one-shot deal, the primer issue is moot.

Agreed. At this point let's be happy that we will have a domestic source for grendel seel cased ammo and worrie later what primer it has.

[StoneHendge]

Only real challenge is American vs Russian labor rates. But with a bit of ingenuity and modern automation....

Russia also doesn't have OSHA, the EPA, etc.

[AZHTfreak]

ammoempire.com 0.66/rd $0 s/h/tax... 2019 reality sez ouch, but that was then...

[lazyengineer]

In one of the discussions online about PSA's upcoming steel-case ammo, I coulda sworn a PSA rep said we'll be "surprised" by the primer used. I take it to mean he's hinting a boxer primer would be used. Although, if we consider steel-case to be a one-shot deal, the primer issue is moot.

I suppose there really is no reason to go to the trouble of an entire separate Bardan primer supply chain line. Might as well just go with Boxer and stick with Boxer for everything.