So I was kicking around the idea of building a PCC with a Forced Reset Trigger (FRT). Just looking for first hand reports. I think there are three different companies making them, almost the same way. Unfortunately, videos online say if you pull the trigger too light it won't work, and if you pull the trigger too hard it will prevent the trigger from resetting and you will have rack the bolt, ejecting the round in the chamber. If it is a pain to use, or some trick shot I don't want to fool around with it. I can use my belt loop for free if I want 50% chance of success. Thanks.
Oh, I guess there is also the "Binary Trigger" if anyone has experience with that.
Currently, the better FRT on the market is Rare-Breed. The ATF ruled their trigger a machine gun and they are under litigation without a restraining order in place. They did the same thing they did with the bump stocks. While I feel Rare-Breed will win that will take years and you will be in possession of an illegal NFA item. The other 2 companies will also be outlawed if the ATF prevails with their case.
From what I hear they are now looking into banning rubber bands, belt loops and Jerry Miculek's trigger finger as machine guns next.
Too much for me to keep on top of. I was under the impression they were currently not illegal. They are coming out with a new trigger that has a 3 position, safe, semi, and FRT. For a while I thought the owner / spokesman for FRT was Joe Rogan, lol.
Rare-Breed is continuing business as if they will win the lawsuit. I have thought about buying one just to support a company that is fighting for our 2a rights. And if the penalties for being in possession of an illegal NFA item were not so high I probably would.
outbreaker Wrote:Rare-Breed is continuing business as if they will win the lawsuit. I have thought about buying one just to support a company that is fighting for our 2a rights. And if the penalties for being in possession of an illegal NFA item were not so high I probably would.
I think the consumer is generally given a pass. If / when it is settled enough in court against the company the ATF will mail all their customers a letter saying mail us the trigger. At that point, the customers decisions could cause themselves trouble. I'm not lawyer, I may be wrong. There is a guy on arfcom who may know. Can't remember his screen name. Got it "LawyerUp". Ask him if you want. He seems like he specializes in police civil right violations out of W. Va. I'd ask but I don't have a login anymore, too many jokes about the staff.
I shot a 5.56 equipped AR with the FRT-15 installed early in 2021. My opinion on it is it's pretty much the same as a bump stock. If you "jerked" the trigger and released, one shot fires. If you pull this trigger as you would any rifle that you are carefully aiming to make the best shot you can, it will throw off a burst of two or three rounds. If you keep a steady pressure BUT not too much pressure on the trigger, it will run wide open. (As the barrel starts looking towards the heavens).
It's junk UNLESS you prefer to own an AR that can throw a lot of rounds down the pipe at the expense of possible collateral damage. (And the ATF knocking on your door as to why you didn't respond to their correspondence).
The manufacturer, Rare Breed, continues to manufacture and ship these triggers despite the ATF telling them to cease and desist. Their offices/manufacturing facilities were raided earlier this month. Unless you bought one of their triggers or a knock off from a private seller, the ATF will have a name and address of the recipient of these items. And at over 300 bucks each, I don't know why you would want an item that is deemed illegal that could get you in very hot water. Oh. Wait. I know why!!! It was a hell of a lot of fun shooting it!!
I don't know how I got on Rare Breed's email list. I get an email from them every other day. I am curious about their trigger but not $380 worth of curious. I'll pass on this one...
I refuse to be victimized by notions of virtuous behavior.
Rare Breed didn't get raided after all. ATF has a history of railroading people until they are confronted will an unwinnable court case.
Example: on at least 3 different occasions ATF dropped their cases against prohibited people in position of or selling firearms when it was just an AR15 lower. Why? Because if you read the federal definition, an AR15 lower is not a firearm.
Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, section 478.11 defines a
firearm receiver as, [t]hat part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt
or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion
to receive the barrel.
My opinion on this for what it's worth, is regardless of the Non-Raid, a knock off company, (Big Daddy Triggers), was raided. It's on the ATF radar and God forbid an idiot uses an AR with one onboard in a high profile shooting, the s#*t will hit the fan and the fan will be on hyperbole speed!!!
These triggers are NOT going to be ignored by the ATF. They are not as prevalent as the bump-stock parts that were rampant years ago due to the 350+ dollar price tag of the FRT trigger(s). Rare Breed is charging mega dollars for this trigger so they can cover their liability and get their return and profits quickly knowing that ultimately, they will be shut down. That's fine for Rare Breed's owners but what about the customers in their database? I feel the ATF will go after folks who have these triggers. So if you comply, you are out the purchase price and the product. If you don't comply, you are jeopardizing yourself with heavy fines, a possible felony charge and conviction, (which will gut your gun collection), jail time, fines, loss of income, etc etc etc.
My solicited opinion is to not purchase one. They are a lot of fun as is any full auto military weapon is to shoot when you aren't being shot at by an enemy combatant. Fun sometimes comes at a high cost.
All that aside, having been through a select fire instructor school, I find full auto/select fire/burst pretty useless. The ENTIRE class, on a timer, was significantly FASTER and MORE ACCURATE putting multiple rounds on multiple targets with a standard trigger. The drill was 3 targets with 8" circles in the center of mass. You had to put three rounds in each circle, a single round out was a "no go". It was stupid how much faster we were with a regular trigger.
Can it be fun to waste money, sure, but practically it's not worth the money.
imaguy3 Wrote:All that aside, having been through a select fire instructor school, I find full auto/select fire/burst pretty useless. The ENTIRE class, on a timer, was significantly FASTER and MORE ACCURATE putting multiple rounds on multiple targets with a standard trigger. The drill was 3 targets with 8" circles in the center of mass. You had to put three rounds in each circle, a single round out was a "no go". It was stupid how much faster we were with a regular trigger.
Can it be fun to waste money, sure, but practically it's not worth the money.
Well there you go.
A class designed to teach you burst or auto is bad.
What was the rational for failing the drill with one round out?
TexHill Wrote:Now may not be the time to purchase a FRT. Leaked ATF email states that they are going to be raiding manufacturers and retailers of FRT's.
The class wasn't there to "prove full auto is bad". It was a 3 day class to teach how to instruct its use and then its benefits/drawbacks in a real world LE capacity.
Frankly... a "no go" is just the same as a DNQ, you did not meet the parameters of the drill so you don't get the reward of your time. By setting an accuracy standard, it forces you to actually try to do good (instead of just trying for time with no regard to accuracy). If there's no measurable accuracy standard what's the point? Sure they could have added time for each round out, but the point of the drill was to illustrate if full auto/burst is really of tangible benefit. By forcing you to ensure your rounds are in an 8" circle it illustrated speed vs controllability vs accuracy.
The fact that EVERY SINGLE PERSON there, with a multitude of platforms, was able to be faster and more accurate with semi auto speaks volumes imho.
Not sure what that link has to do with anything. That being said, there was an integrally suppressed MP5 there and it was badass. That and the grease gun were the only guns there that was actually fun and controllable in full auto. Using anything in 5.56 was pointless. I was there with a 12.5" Sionics wearing my Sandman K.
All points I was trying to make boil down to this:
The 8 inch circle is arbitrary and has no value in a kill or incapacitate as fast as possible situation. 14" x 36" is much more reasonable. If you put a few outside the target what's the big deal? I think the ave hit % for leo is 30%.
My link was a rare example of a situation where full auto pin point accuracy is 1) needed, and 2) achieved.
01-28-2022, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 01-28-2022, 11:23 PM by imaguy3.)
Fair enough, I'm not going to debate anything with you, nor will I try to change your mind. What I will do is supply a little information to each of your points as to why we do some things the way we do them.
Happy2Shoot Wrote:All points I was trying to make boil down to this:
The 8 inch circle is arbitrary and has no value in a kill or incapacitate as fast as possible situation. 14" x 36" is much more reasonable.
Here is a qual target used in Arizona as dictated by AZPOST. The scorable "qual zone" is the black line you see running around the vitals, it's roughly 11" wide and 16" high. During annual quals, if it's not in the inner zone it does not count. https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/f-...natomy.asp
same size target with an 8" circle (the big one). Notice the size and location of the circle in relation to the whole qual zone. Now look at that again on a vitals target. https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/tq...sion-4.asp
Happy2Shoot Wrote:If you put a few outside the target what's the big deal? I think the ave hit % for leo is 30%.
Aim small miss small, train to shoot as well as possible, set tight standards. This way under stress and less than ideal circumstances you have a greater "margin of error" for your mistakes to prevent things like this.
Well written and although it has been known for decades that semi auto fire is more precise, it is pretty good to see LEA proving it to themselves as well as understanding the conditions when fully auto fire would be of value. Not sure what those conditions would be in terms of LEA in the USA but maybe there are instances where it is advisable.
That said, a guy can train enough so he can put three rounds into that eight inch circle with a decent carbine or subgun but the first round wouldn't be fired any faster than with a carbine on semi. I have seen decent SAW gunners shoot really well with three round bursts in Kill Houses so I know it can be done. Just think it would be a waste of money and unnecessary for LEA.
BTW - did I miss the course of fire you used? Like target array, distance, and time?
01-29-2022, 02:44 AM (This post was last modified: 01-29-2022, 02:47 AM by imaguy3.)
LR1955 Wrote:IG3:
Well written and although it has been known for decades that semi auto fire is more precise, it is pretty good to see LEA proving it to themselves as well as understanding the conditions when fully auto fire would be of value. Not sure what those conditions would be in terms of LEA in the USA but maybe there are instances where it is advisable.
That said, a guy can train enough so he can put three rounds into that eight inch circle with a decent carbine or subgun but the first round wouldn't be fired any faster than with a carbine on semi. I have seen decent SAW gunners shoot really well with three round bursts in Kill Houses so I know it can be done. Just think it would be a waste of money and unnecessary for LEA.
BTW - did I miss the course of fire you used? Like target array, distance, and time?
Good write up. Very professional.
LR-55
The take away from everyone in the training, was pretty much full auto in an AR platform has no place in current LE, in a sub gun like an MP5 the argument could be made.
If you are talking about the 8" circle drill, the drill was three targets set up about 5 feet apart. We were on the 15yrd line. The drill was on the timer, from safety on, move to full auto and do a controlled burst of 3 rds (using trigger control) into the 8" circle of each target, using the safety in between target transitions. The whole class did this. We then did the same drill on semi auto only. It wasn't even close as to how much faster everyone was on semi auto only with group sizes being much much tighter. There was no time limit. We were racing each other and ourselves. The caveat was that if any round was outside of the 8" circle you did not get your time and it was a "no go" (DNQ)
At the end of the week we could all shoot full auto well don't get me wrong, but we could all shoot semi auto faster and with tighter groups. Not to mention it is so much easier to manipulate the safety/selector to semi vs a full 180* rotation.
Everyone was doing it with what they brought. Most people had AR platforms of various barrel lengths and optic setups. The guy with the MP5 was obviously no problem for him due to the ability of the trigger to better control 3 shots while in full auto in this method.
As for the AZPOST pistol qual with the targets I posted. Attached is the pistol course of fire prescribed by AZPOST that every LEO in the state has to qualify with annually. Let me know if it doesn't work. It's 50 rounds, 5 pts for in and 0 for out, total score of 250. In order to be considered for firearms instructor school (2 wks long) you need to shoot a 230 or better opening morning, if not you go home.
imaguy3 Wrote:The take away from everyone in the training, was pretty much full auto in an AR platform has no place in current LE, in a sub gun like an MP5 the argument could be made.
If you are talking about the 8" circle drill, the drill was three targets set up about 5 feet apart. We were on the 15yrd line. The drill was on the timer, from safety on, move to full auto and do a controlled burst of 3 rds (using trigger control) into the 8" circle of each target, using the safety in between target transitions. The whole class did this. We then did the same drill on semi auto only. It wasn't even close as to how much faster everyone was on semi auto only with group sizes being much much tighter. There was no time limit. We were racing each other and ourselves. The caveat was that if any round was outside of the 8" circle you did not get your time and it was a "no go" (DNQ)
At the end of the week we could all shoot full auto well don't get me wrong, but we could all shoot semi auto faster and with tighter groups. Not to mention it is so much easier to manipulate the safety/selector to semi vs a full 180* rotation.
Everyone was doing it with what they brought. Most people had AR platforms of various barrel lengths and optic setups. The guy with the MP5 was obviously no problem for him due to the ability of the trigger to better control 3 shots while in full auto in this method.
As for the AZPOST pistol qual with the targets I posted. Attached is the pistol course of fire prescribed by AZPOST that every LEO in the state has to qualify with annually. Let me know if it doesn't work. It's 50 rounds, 5 pts for in and 0 for out, total score of 250. In order to be considered for firearms instructor school (2 wks long) you need to shoot a 230 or better opening morning, if not you go home.
IM3:
Thankyou again for the info.
Doctrine for you guys to put the safety on between targets in an array?
No time standard?
Just asking. Even if there was a time standard, the final results would be the same but it would be a lot closer. More guys would miss one shot out of nine, even on semi, when under a time constraint.
A unit I was in actually had a couple of M-3's. One thing I can say about them is that they are not prone to malfunction. The thing breaks down into six parts if I remember, and the bolt weighs about as much as the rest of it. Stick your finger in a hole in the bolt, pull back until it locks, point and blast. The hotter it got, the faster its rate of fire. Guess all those 'tight tolerances' needed to expand and open up a bit for it to really go. A fellow is SOL big time if he loses the wire stock. No way a guy will get more than ten rounds in that mag by hand without that little loading thing on the stock. Something tells me that the sights on one of them aren't really made to do anything other than show a guy the thing is pointed away from him.
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