10 Head of Big Game - 6.5 Grendel – 4 Seasons

[Stinky Coyote]

10 Head of Big Game - 6.5 Grendel – 4 Seasons

10 Big Game Animals taken over 4 seasons in Alberta with a 6.5 Grendel. Myself and my Kids. Before my two Boys were of legal Hunting age, I wanted a cartridge that would suit all our needs without any excess and settled on the 6.5 Grendel many years previous but had to wait for availability of factory rifles and ammo. The cartridge was released in 2004 so it took its sweet time becoming readily available up here in Canada.

I purchased the first 6.5 Grendel in late 2017 or early 2018 and had it ready to go for the 2018 season.

2018; The first animal taken, a young Bull Moose at 125 yards with a 15-yard recovery, later the same day a small 4-point Whitetail Buck at 125 yards also with a 15-yard recovery. Appears to be the first Moose ever taken with this cartridge (Nov 10, 2018). Boys weren’t old enough yet, so this season was just me filling the freezer and studying performance of the new cartridge.

2019; My oldest was now 12, passed his Hunters Education and had a Whitetail tag in his pocket. He took a nice little 4-point Whitetail Buck from a blind at 238 yards, DRT.

2020; I took a Non-Trophy Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep at 170 yards, DRT, my oldest took a large Mule Deer Buck at 192 yards, DRT, and then I took a nice 4-point Whitetail Buck at 198 yards, DRT. My youngest turned 12 just after the 2020 season so he got his Hunters Education over the Holiday Break and we made plans for Spring Bear to find his first.

2021; My youngest takes his first with a nice 5’ Black Bear at 10 yards, DRT. In the fall he took a nice 5x4 mature Whitetail Buck at 300 yards! 50-yard recovery. Then later in the season my oldest took a young Whitetail Doe at 355 yards with 40-yard recovery and I turned it into a double header with a mature Whitetail Doe at 420 yards, DRT.

We are 10 for 10 on Big Game now, at least 4 coyotes have also fallen to the Grendel as well. There’s only one miss on Big Game (a number of misses on coyotes), it was in 2021 on a rushed shot by my oldest in a blind with a Doe, she was in a hurry, and we couldn’t quite get moved and settled as she blew through on the wrong side of our blind at 120 yards and only stopped once briefly. The 300 yard plus shots were all laying prone across a valley, the 192-yard Mule Deer was prone, Sheep was prone, sitting height bipods used on a couple and shooting sticks, nothing freehand.

Since it’s a relatively newer cartridge for our part of the world I’ve been careful to detail the experiences to this point. Our average shot distance has been 213 yards and our average recovery distance has been 12 yards. 5 head of Big Game taken by Myself (experienced shooter), and 5 Head by two new shooters.

The ammo we have used throughout has been factory Hornady Black with the 123gr ELD-M bullets. The bullet combination of high sectional density, lighter construction (modern cup and core), and moderate velocity has been performing to expectation. We are getting deep penetration, great expansion and internal damage, and exits on almost all the class 2 size game(deer/sheep/bear), two larger deer had enough angle to keep the bullets in for some study and the best example to record was the 2020 Whitetail Buck at 198 yards steep quartering away. Impact velocity 2100 fps, entered through the second last rib and stopped after about 18” penetration in offsite meat front of brisket just under the hide, 99.8 grains recovered or 81%. The 420-yard mature Doe from this season was similar quartering away, 1800 fps impact, entrance was middle rib cage and it exited just inside offside front shoulder after 15” penetration with a 1.5” hole out the front end. Both those deer dropped on the spot with brilliant internal damage.

The game has been taken by 3 different rifles. The first 4 head of game (2018 & 2019) with a CZ 527 American (2 head with factory barrel about 23.5” and 2552 fps mv and 1 with 24” Proof Research carbon barrel at 2605 fps mv) then the 2019 deer taken with 20” Howa Mini Action with approx. 2500 fps mv. From 2020 onward and 6 head of the game has all been taken with Ruger American Ranch with 16.1” barrel and 2386 fps mv.

Trying out several rifles and platforms through these 4 seasons with traditional and chassis style stocks etc. we’ve migrated to the Ruger platform in MDT LSS-XL Gen2 AR chassis with Magpul furniture. The rifle has adjustable LOP to fit any size shooter and grow with them. The chassis adds weight but really ups the shoot-ability, soaks recoil, easy to watch everything in scope, and or, get back in scope etc. and the Kids are shooting it well as a result. Recoil energy calculates to approx. 6.5 ft/lbs. We’re about 8 ¼ lbs scoped without ammo. Our choice of accessories currently is Trijicon 3-9x40 Accupoint green dot duplex with Kenton Industries Speed Dial Turret (dials to 500 from 200 zero), removed factory picatinny rail in favor of Talley 1” Low Lightweight Rings, Strike Industries Buffer Tube, Magpul CTR Butt Stock, Magpul Moe-K Grip. Average 3-Shot group accuracy has been about ¾ moa all the way to 500 yards with that factory Hornady ammo and factory trigger setting at approx. 3 lbs.

I weighed this cartridge very heavily against the long-time champ of starter cartridges, the .243 win. The 6.5 Grendel may give up some point blank zero range, but we live in a day of rangefinders now so it’s a smaller advantage. The 123gr bullet of the 6.5 Grendel starts to walk away from the .243 after 300 yards in most factory ammo comparisons and it does it with a heavier better penetrating bullet as well. Less wind drift due to the high BC also. I’ve owned several .243’s and introduced new shooters with it previously. Now I will recommend the 6.5 Grendel, at minimum an equal to the .243 win. For reasons surrounding the bullet I think it’s actually better suited to Big Game than the .243. I would recommend the 6.5 Grendel not just as a starter cartridge but also as that cartridge a long-time shooter may migrate to after climbing the horsepower ladder and coming back down the other side.

I’m not a big Elk guy or traveller to hunt rare game in distant lands. We are primarily deer/sheep and other class 2 game, meat over trophy, the odd moose draw, lots of coyote/predator calling. We have found something that does what we ask with no fat and it’s working well.

A final observation we have noticed with this cartridge is the apparent lack of noise to the game and they didn't seem to explode and leave the country as I've always been used with typical standard cartridges big game cartridges, including the .243 win but usually I was shooting .270 win or better. We had game standing around, not going as far even hit fatally, and other game that was with the game we shot would stick around also. There was a lot the we were able to see in the scope after pulling the trigger. This has become a common enough theme as the seasons have rolled on now that it's standing out as an unexpected benefit. We even had a coyote give my youngest a second shot from the blind after I lip squeaked it into 80 yards and he missed a head on shot but it didn't leave full scald like usual, a good lope and stopped again at 120 yards broadside and give another chance. That's quite unusual.

So that’s a wrap on our first 10 head of Big Game over 4 seasons. The 6.5 Grendel is the 21st Century Interpretation of what 30 grains of powder can do. We’ve heard plenty about two other 21st Century 6.5’s in the Creedmoor and PRC so maybe a little attention was due, especially since the Grendel was here first in 2004, the Creedmoor in 2008, and the PRC in 2020. All 3 amazingly efficient providing the most performance available for the powder burned. Hope you enjoyed the write up.

Edit: Spring bear 2022, just added 2 more bears on the Ruger Ranch, my oldest got his first bear at 25 yards, 0 yard recovery, and I took one at 55 yards with 20 yard recovery. ~185 yard average shot distance and ~11.5 yard average recovery distance, 12 for 12, still batting 1000.

[Old Bob]

Congratz on the game you've taken over the last 4 years. The best part of your hunting trips is the precious, quality time you've spent with your boys. Congratz on that as well!

[sundowner]

Congrats on the 10 , great story , thanks for sharing .

[LRRPF52]

Wow. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I was almost shocked when you said 123gr ELD-M was your go-to bullet, but we know that it exhibits relatively consistent controlled expansion and penetration.

To think you are reliably taking that wide of a variety of game from yotes to moose is really impressive and demonstrates how versatile the cartridge is.

Typically, we have heard that you would need at least 2 different rifles for those tasks, for example using the .243 for yotes and deer, while using at least a .270 Win for elk and moose.

You could use the .270 Win for yotes, but it’s a lot of powder and energy to expend for such small game.

Grendel equals Goldilocks it seems.

[biodsl]

Thanks for great insight into a great cartridge. Interesting how as your experience grew the barrel length shrank!

[BluntForceTrauma]

Thanks for the report!

[Stinky Coyote]

Thanks for great insight into a great cartridge. Interesting how as your experience grew the barrel length shrank!

Good observation! It sure did. The way I see this formula I like, which is 'for game intended' the proper sectional density, bullet construction and impact velocities. And they all have to jive together. The bullet construction of the eld-m lends well to performing in big game at lower impact velocities, the bullet retains it's SD better and therefore penetrates deep enough for game intended while doing good work along the way. I coined the term some time ago as SDRR (sectional density reduction rate). One can envision both ends of the spectrum where you run an overbore .257 wby mag and 80gr ttsx at warp speed and it needs two factors to do well on big game with that sad SD...it needs mega speed and it needs to be a tough bullet so it retains as much of its sad SD as possible....the other end of the spectrum is the Grendel, launch a much more pliable bullet with plenty of SD at speeds that allows it to also retain it's SD. I find one of these examples far more efficient than the other so I've migrated to it, neither camp is wrong, we can play all over the spectrum in between and largely that's what we discuss and compare all the time without using talking points like I just did.

The more SD you start with the more the bullet can be allowed to open and do work will still attaining your 18-24" penetration depths over an acceptable range of impact velocities in your preferred hunting ranges. This is where the Grendel ELD-M formula really shines as it does that very well for big game to normal hunting distances even out of a short barrel, it's not going to be driving through 4' of elk running away up the whazzoo but used responsibly it will drive through 18-24" at most ranges out to and beyond where 98% of game is taken.

I'd love to work with Hornady to develop the SDRR and ERR theories of mine further and incorporate into the next gen ballistics. It would sure alleviate alot of the arguments online and help explain actual terminal performance better imo. ERR (energy reduction rate). So with gel testing and measuring these things we could really compare things a lot better imo. Understanding how much energy will dump over how many inches combined with how much SD will dump etc. See we have great pre-impact in-flight understanding of bullet performance in BC, velocity, atmospheric conditions, wind etc. so we can get the bullet there...but we still have a pretty crude understanding of what happens after impact. We could tighten this down with better numbers and ways to look at it. As the SD of a bullet changes the instant you hit something, we don't measure that, we should, it will be a better predictor of terminal performance and also the energy dump over the travel as well. I digress...I'm a bit of a nerd. Hornady should hire me and give me an endless supply of gel and let me develop this out...

Looking at my 2100 fps impact velocity 200 yard whitetail buck where I got 18" penetration going in 2nd last rib and stopping in meat in front of brisket under hide for example. It hit with 2100 fps, dumped 1200 ft/lbs over that travel and 99.8 grains remained (81% retention) and it opened up to likely triple. So there's actually an SD to be measured there before and after and could be reduced to the 'per inch' loss, as well as the 1200 ft/lbs energy divided by 18" to give an energy reduction rate. The 420 yard doe I took impacted at 1800 fps, almost the same shot but less steeply quartering away so went in mid rib cage and existed inside front should after about 15" penetration with 1.5" hole so it was still doing work, and 885 ft/lbs energy. Penetration depth wasn't going to be an issue and it may have gone further than the 18" of the buck because it may have retained more of it's SD with that lower impact velocity. I've said for a long time that energy doesn't matter as much as SD/Construction/Impact Velocity...but it can give an indicator to what's going to be done internally. The 420 yard doe internal damage was awesome, everything above the heart obliterated and both these deer dropped on the spot. Same rifle and bullet.

So I'm doing in the field what could be done with gel. It's ok I have the understanding of what will happen but we could standardize this stuff going forward and become far more efficient with our gear and I think these numbers would also help drive future ballistics and design with the manufacturers giving us even better performing bullets and cartridges than we have now...win win imo. Are we ready for the future? Hornady?....bueller....bueller...

This is the sort of stuff that would explain Bell and his 1100 elephants and could cross over to all sizes of game etc. not just the stuff here in North America. It would be very beneficial in Africa as well, maybe even more important than here as half the stuff over there can kill you. Anyway...Hornady...lets do this. You're on top of the game currently, lets take it to the next level.

p.s. I've recorded the dates and links to when I first put these theories into the universe so no funny business manufacturers, I'll take royalties too but I'd much rather be apart of the process.

[Stinky Coyote]

Well I put together a little Instagram page to document the 6.5 Grendel hunting experiences to date, lots of pics, some vids, some necropsies. Check it out here...

https://www.instagram.com/65grendelhunters/

I may have cropped and borrowed one image from here, the 320 yard whitetail buck with the recovered eld-m from the short 12" barrel. I remember back when that was posted asking for location to go with that 2200 fps launch so I could figure out elevation etc. and ran it through calculator and got to 1700 fps impact velocity. Anyway, it's such a good account of the eld-m and impact velocity range and that it was recovered etc. I had to keep that data. Hope the op doesn't mind. Also kept info about that 752 yard antelope handy as well with estimated 1500 fps impact from the 24" barrel and the A-max (same bullet different density tip).

With those two lower velocity impacts combined with some of mine we get some information from my 2315 fps, 2100 fps, 1800 fps impact velocities with the eld-m...and with the above two examples from here at 1625 fps and 1500 fps we can connect the dots pretty well with what to expect in the field. Took quite a few years to get all this put together.

[PaulieV]

Nice work SC, love it

[gwtx]

Great post, thanks, and congratulations. Keep us updated.

[Gnarly]

Awesome post, thanks for sharing

[tdbru]

Well done SC.
there are typcially 5 key points to putting down big game animals. I think the first three are "shot placement" hahaha.... With good shot placement, 22LR has accounted for practically everything on the planet.
You've shown that with good shot placement, the 6.5 Grendel will do a lot of big game harvesting. You didn't mention how well the 6.5 Grendel does of downing big game if you hit them in the butt. you get the idea. Your shot placement is good so you give yourself large latitude on caliber choice. As long as you pick your shots with discernment and put the bullet where it needs to go the 6.5 Grendel will likely never disappoint.
I think one of the problems with predicting terminal performance is how do you model big game critters internals? Ballistic Gelatin probably is close to modeling muscle tissue. but there are bones, ligaments, tendons, blood vessels, hide, hair, etc that don't fit the gel density or uniformity. I'm sure the engineers at Hornady could optimize terminal performance on Ballistic Gelatin. The big question is, does that translate to bullet performance on deer, elk, antelope, bear, etc?
Also you mentioned that the lower muzzle report of the 6.5 Grendel seemed to be an advantage. But, without a can, the shorter the barrel the louder the muzzle report. The statement of lower muzzle report seems contradictory to short barrels. Seems to me that without a can, the longer the barrel the lower the muzzle pressure at bullet exit and hence the lower the muzzle report. For that reason, among others, I prefer the 20" and up barrels, though the rifles wearing them will be heavier. Like everything, a tradeoff.
Thanks for your detailed reporting. And yes, if you can get the bullet into and through the vitals, big game expire. So whatever the formula, as you pointed out, that will accomplish that end, the results will be meat in the freezer.
Best of luck on all your future hunts for you and your family.
-tdbru

[JASmith]

Stinky,

Your instagram tells a large part of the Grendel story.

Well done!

[Stinky Coyote]

Thanks guys, terminal ballistics isn't quite as fully developed as the in-flight ballistics. We sure know how to get the bullet to the target but after that it's still wildly subjective discussions, many arguments etc. I'd like to see us equalize these two. Currently I don't think we're measuring enough parameters and coming up the right numbers, measures, or predictors so that we can compare bullets more objectively on the terminal side. There's a very interesting thread over on the Rokslide forum where a lot of guys have been killing quite a bit of big game with a .223 running 77gr tmk's...there's elk/moose, piles of deer etc. and the wound channels are incredible. So we have a ways to go to better explain bell's 1100 elephants to the old schoolers of 'just throw a 180 out of a 30 and you're good' to a lot of us having a more modern understanding of it all but still explaining it subjectively. I think in the 21st century we can improve our ability to compare and anticipate between bullets on the terminal end. I'd like Hornady to hire me and give me unlimited gel budget and I'll figure it out. They do more with the FBI standards in gelatin but we don't have anything like it for 'hunting'. The more you do this and witness, the more you're left wondering what's actually needed, we've all seen it, something with a very impressive head stamp show less performance than something most would scoff at. I digress...we'll get there.

I think what we're missing most is measuring the bullet 'after' it's done it's work. There's apparently a fair bit of work done late 20th maybe early 21st century studying wound channels and temporary stretch cavities and permanent wound channels etc. but that's not where we need to go next. We need to look at the change in the bullet from start of hide to stop a lot more. There needs to be new numbers on the packages outside of bc, sd, velocity etc. We know energy is mostly useless number. I digressed again...gotta run

[pavementends]

Good post

[tdbru]

well, it's not the 1900s anymore and we can't go to the Chicago stock yards and shoot thousands of cattle and autopsy the dead animals and make some predictions or recommendations.

examining bullets in game animals "after" they've done the work can be an issue depending upon one's own idea of if they want an exit hole or not as well. those that prefer an exit hole that goes along with the entrance one make it quite difficult to examine what the bullet looks like after it's done the work. You can autopsy the critter and see what were the results of the bullet on the critter, but the bullet becomes very difficult to find once it exits the animal.

if you can shoot critters at the right distance and angle to be able to recover the bullet still inside the game animal, then depending on what the bullet hits along the way, the shape/size/weight etc of two identical bullets out of the same box of bullets or ammo, fired in the same rifle yada yada will most likely be very different upon recovery. And what would be the learning then? Someone will step back and look and say, hmmm, they both killed the critter, and leave it at that. if we lose an animal to a poor performing bullet, we all want to know what went wrong, but often when we're gutting out the deer, worrying about the effectiveness of the bullet we just killed the deer with is not top of mind....

as long as you and your boys keep up the great shot placement, you'll be filling the freezer.

-tdbru

[Stinky Coyote]

Yup shot placement trumps all. And agree a standardized method of comparing rather than our in field dissections would help a lot. As I’ve noticed afield I just prefer a certain formula and so have migrated to that, would have faster to do had there been a more objective standard to choose what I wanted for terminal performance for my needs. I’ve gone up the magnum ladder with delayed controlled expansion and have come all the way back down the other side. Took decades of experience to get here. Could have happened a lot sooner imo. We will see this gap closed in the near future I’m sure.

[JASmith]

A fair bit of work has been done over the years to help rationalize bullet performance at the terminal end. The primary obstacle to predictability is the structure and variety of game animals. We very rarely see two bullets impact at the same spot, in the same direction and at the same velocity on two identical animals.

That means that performance of your bullet is what could be called a biased random event. The bias is toward the average performance, but a lot of things can happen with even the best bullets.

The best correlation with average performance is with bullet design and weight provided the impact velocity is with the manufacturer’s recommended range.

Follow this link to get more info http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-we...et-weight/

- - - and this one for a calculator that gives you recommended bullet weights for animal size: http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-we...et-weight/

[Stinky Coyote]

Agree, lots of subjective still. That's why the comparison has to be in a standardized medium and we need to look at other numbers, finished SD is one of them we don't talk about period. The bullet has a start SD and an end SD. The difference needs to be measured against amount of penetration. If I were a bullet manufacturer trying to show off my 'expand down to 1300 fps, while doing 2.5x expansion, while still maintaining 75% weight, while still penetrating 24"' I'd want to strut my stuff against the other bullets out there. However, we just aren't there yet. I would be looking at spin rate (rpm's of these fast twist heavy for cal bullets also in there to see if there's a correlation to those bullets that are softer and end up with 30% of their weight retained etc. help explain that internal explosion more comparably also, it could be a number we're missing. But additional to the SD that is lost over x-amount of penetration there was a corresponding energy dump that could relate directly to it. So while I can often see the future...this is the future I see in next gen ballistics. More accurate way to compare terminal ballistics in helping us choose bullets for game intended that we like based on objective but also helps the manufacturers develop bullets more to what we like and find holes in performance gaps for various game sizes we chase, right from bunnies to brown bears or even Africa stuff as well. Of course we know a direct major bone hit changes everything afield and middle body cavity hits are where its at so it's pointless to discuss that subjective. We know what bullets will smash through four feet of elk and which ones will struggle with 16" of penetration...but we don't know how to explain it objectively yet, it's 95% subjective.

[Stinky Coyote]

Spring bear 2022, just added 2 more bears on the Ruger Ranch, my oldest got his first bear at 25 yards, 0 yard recovery, and I took one at 55 yards with 20 yard recovery. ~185 yard average shot distance and ~11.5 yard average recovery distance, 12 for 12, still batting 1000.