Barrel Cleaning

[JTB]

Hey guys. I’ll try and keep this short. I install d a new JP 22” barrel. Broke in as specified. Ran first 100 rounds, cleaned with Hoppes bore gel. Ran patches brushed with bronze brush 3 passes straight thru, patched until clean. Accuracy went from 1 1/2 upon break in and tightened up to 3/4 and 1” normally and I threw out a few 1/2” groups as well during that 100. I shot 50 rounds 3/4-1” as usual. Cleaned again. Only took a few patches and brushed once 3 passes and patched again a few times and it was clean. After that I shot 100 over the last two weekends and shot 1 1/4-1 1/2. All groups are 5 shots with hand loads same as usual. So yesterday I was curious and I cleaned it with Shooters Choice MC-7. I ran 3 wet patches and and they were black, brushed 3 times, patched a lot, brushed again, patched. I ended up having to run 40 plus patches before they were ever clean. So was the Hoppes not cleaning good? Maybe this is why I started seeing erratic groups. Now I will shoot a bad groups once and a while but not consistently. I just can’t see me shooting 20 groups bad after I have been shoot 3/4 and 1”. I have never got copper from any of the cleanings I have done. And I didn’t yesterday either. What are you thoughts on this cleaning and Hoppes Bore Gel. I don’t remember if it was elite but I don’t think it is. Thanks in advance for any responses.

[LR1955]

Hey guys. I’ll try and keep this short. I install d a new JP 22” barrel. Broke in as specified. Ran first 100 rounds, cleaned with Hoppes bore gel. Ran patches brushed with bronze brush 3 passes straight thru, patched until clean. Accuracy went from 1 1/2 upon break in and tightened up to 3/4 and 1” normally and I threw out a few 1/2” groups as well during that 100. I shot 50 rounds 3/4-1” as usual. Cleaned again. Only took a few patches and brushed once 3 passes and patched again a few times and it was clean. After that I shot 100 over the last two weekends and shot 1 1/4-1 1/2. All groups are 5 shots with hand loads same as usual. So yesterday I was curious and I cleaned it with Shooters Choice MC-7. I ran 3 wet patches and and they were black, brushed 3 times, patched a lot, brushed again, patched. I ended up having to run 40 plus patches before they were ever clean. So was the Hoppes not cleaning good? Maybe this is why I started seeing erratic groups. Now I will shoot a bad groups once and a while but not consistently. I just can’t see me shooting 20 groups bad after I have been shoot 3/4 and 1”. I have never got copper from any of the cleanings I have done. And I didn’t yesterday either. What are you thoughts on this cleaning and Hoppes Bore Gel. I don’t remember if it was elite but I don’t think it is. Thanks in advance for any responses.

JTB:

My thoughts on cleaning is to get some CLP on a Bore Snake and pull it through the barrel a couple of times. After a couple hundred rounds I may use a bore brush and some Hoppes #9 Plus. Why Hoppes #9 Plus? Because I got a couple of big bottles of it for free. Mostly I use CLP because I got a couple gallons of it for free as well.

Also, I have never found a clean barrel to shoot consistently. I think you are overcleaning the barrel and it wouldn't matter what solvent you are using. Shoot it dirty for a while and see what happens.

Let me also recommend you shoot it at 300 or at least 200 yards instead of 100. You will get a much more realistic appraisal of the performance of your ammo, equipment, and you at 300 or 200 than 100.

LR-55

[JTB]

I will do that. I wish I had not ever cleaned it because it was fine and then I cleaned it and ran 50. Then I ran 50 more and now I’m back to square one. Oh well I get to practice more. I’m never cleaning it again. I was just about to start shooting 200. That’s about as much of a stretch as I can get at the moment. Thanks for the advice.

[Klem]

JTB,

My barrels get the bare minimum cleaning and for bolt guns that often means going straight back into the safe without being touched. They only get cleaned if it will be a while between shoots or the group size is doing something strange. Group size may be related to a dirty barrel or it may just be me on that day. The MPI changes when the barrel is cleaned, so another reason not to clean.

Earlier in my shooting career there were all sorts of things being tried like carburetor cleaner and Autosol (the thick white liquid car polish). Autosol strips everything out but then needs to be stripped out itself, which takes time and effort. Autosol was recommended by some old timers so it was popular at the time. If you come from the military the dogma of cleaning every time is hard to unlearn but you get over it when you have time to compare. I also use a length of Zerust anti corrosion cord for each barrel. The working parts get cleaned every time but the barrel is left untouched with a length of corrosion cord in the safe.

The spirit of doing this is to leave the copper in the micro-pores and the zero untouched. The zero often changes fractionally but that's due to other things like ambient temp, wind, recoil settup etc. If I clean a barrel the zero gets noticeably thrown out however and takes a few rounds to shift and settle again (fouling shots). If you don't clean you won't need as many, if any fouling shots. If after a while of not cleaning something strange is happening or group sizes seem to be getting bigger, then sure, clean it and see if that helps.

I have also seen a match barrel destroyed by overcleaning. Apparently it was not due to the cleaning itself but the bias of how the shooter was working the rod through the barrel, favoring one side. I do have a few nylon bore guides and these come out when serious brushing is needed. Bore guides come in different sizes for different calibres and actions. Keeps cleaning oils from the chamber, although that's not an issue if you finish up with an oversized patch on a larger piece of wood for just the chamber and neck.

My advice is to let the barrel tell you when it is time to be cleaned, and not just because you think it is the responsible thing to do.

[LR1955]

I will do that. I wish I had not ever cleaned it because it was fine and then I cleaned it and ran 50. Then I ran 50 more and now I’m back to square one. Oh well I get to practice more. I’m never cleaning it again. I was just about to start shooting 200. That’s about as much of a stretch as I can get at the moment. Thanks for the advice.

JT:

It will need cleaning eventually. I pull a bore snake through my barrels after I shoot and do a thorough cleaning about every 300 to 500 rounds. I will clean the bolt carrier and bolt more often.

You did not ruin your barrel by cleaning it with Hoppes. In fact, I don't know of a bore solvent that ruins barrels.

Ain't the solvent or the cleaning.

LR55

[Klem]

JT:

In fact, I don't know of a bore solvent that ruins barrels.



LR55

Be careful of Sweets 7.62 or other ammonia-based cleaners like Windex. Sweets came with instructions not to leave it in a barrel for more than 15min (I say came because I don't use it anymore so unsure if the formula or instructions have changed). Ammonia will strip out not only the fouling but removes copper. When cleaning I try and remove the powder fouling but leave the copper.

[Drillboss]

LR55 and Klem, I love you guys. Being a self proclaimed lazy SOB, your thoughts on cleaning barrels is music to my ears. Maybe I'm not all that lazy, but I hate doing work that doesn't need to be done. I've been cleaning my shotguns for a long time by spraying in some RemOil and pulling a bore snake through them. Good to know I can probably do the same thing with my rifles. Klem, the Zerust is something I'll be looking into a little deeper. Thanks much for the insight.

[Klem]

Drillboss,

I'm with you.

Talking about cleaning shotguns. For normal smokeless powder that's a spray with WD40 and oversize patch for me. If it's black powder [blank rounds] the barrel comes off and soaked in hot soapy water with a brass brush. Takes less than 30 seconds. Like washing dishes; let stand upright for a few minutes dry with an old towel and WD40 to finish. I read Hoppes has up to 10% water, which is great for cleaning but you'd need to get rid of that before storage.

This might give you some ideas; it works for me.

The top is a shotgun cleaning rod. It's a solid lead slug with a hollow base that has been hammered permanently onto the rod at the base end so you can still use brushes on the other end. It saves on patch size.

The bottom is a length of wood dowel with a notch cut into the tip. Put a 6.5mm cleaning patch into the notch and fold the rest over the side. Twist it round in the chamber a few times at the end to get rid of the oils.

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One more thought. I also make use of oversize patches. Jam them into the throat, hold the gun upright and tap the base of the rod on the ground. Like bashing in star pickets with a dolly the weight of the rifle works its way down in increments. Eventually the patch comes out the muzzle. It's no more than the normal recoil so it won't hurt the scope.

[JTB]

You guys are always a wealth of knowledge. I am going out Friday afternoon to see how she does. I fear I have went backwards by cleaning with the shooters choice. She was shooting good before I cleaned it and I should have let it be. Man once I started reloading and chasing tight groups now I’m OCD about it. I am going to put 50 thru it Friday. Hopefully it comes back around quickly. I was off work for a week to hunt and the weather was bad and I got bored and cleaned all my guns. My BA 223 Wylde settled back down quick but it fouls a little quicker I believe.

[LR1955]

You guys are always a wealth of knowledge. I am going out Friday afternoon to see how she does. I fear I have went backwards by cleaning with the shooters choice. She was shooting good before I cleaned it and I should have let it be. Man once I started reloading and chasing tight groups now I’m OCD about it. I am going to put 50 thru it Friday. Hopefully it comes back around quickly. I was off work for a week to hunt and the weather was bad and I got bored and cleaned all my guns. My BA 223 Wylde settled back down quick but it fouls a little quicker I believe.

JT:

Some advice. If you are 'OCD' about chasing tight groups, you are headed for frustration and the blame game.

'Hoping' it comes back quickly means your attention will be focused on the false notion that you somehow ruined a barrel by using a tested bore cleaner made by a reputable company. You did not ruin your barrel with Hoppes bore gel or any Hoppes product.

Let me suggest you find a purpose for the rifle and load and pursue what ever that may be. Some guys hunt, others shoot steel, others are into some sort of competitive sport. These are probably more enjoyable and motivational than blowing through a bunch of ammo in pursuit of something that is probably a statistical outlier. I have come up with simple courses of fire that were practical, had standards, and built some very good marksmanship skills. Far more satisfying than shooting from a bench for groups.

LR55

[JTB]

Yes sir. I bought some steel plates about a week ago that I am planning to start shooting at multiple distances. That’s really what I want to do. My plan with this rifle is mainly bang steel and hunt with it some. I have plenty of rifles I hunt with as well. As far as the hoppes goes. I know it didn’t ruin my barrel at all. I was just thinking it was not cleaning as good as the shooters choice. That being why the SC got so much carbon out. I’ve used #9 and the gel. Not sure the gel does what hoppes 9 will do. That’s really what I had meant. I completely agree that burning 100s of rounds shooting groups is pointless. I just like seeing those 1/2” cloverleafs. Lol. Few and far between. I am taking your advice and setting up at 200 Friday afternoon and go enjoy my rifle a little while.

[LRRPF52]

OP: You have cleaned your JP barrel more times in the past 3 weeks than I have cleaned all of my barrels in the past 3 years I think.

I am not seeing any of the accuracy issues that you are.

I took my Lilja 17.6” Grendel out Monday and Tuesday to shoot in a new area, and checked my zero at 106yds. I shot 2x 5rd groups into 1” from an uncomfortable prone position in the cold, with a very lightweight rifle that is squirrely to handle in-position.

I honestly can’t recall the last time I cleaned the barrel.

[JTB]

OP: You have cleaned your JP barrel more times in the past 3 weeks than I have cleaned all of my barrels in the past 3 years I think.

I am not seeing any of the accuracy issues that you are.

I took my Lilja 17.6” Grendel out Monday and Tuesday to shoot in a new area, and checked my zero at 106yds. I shot 2x 5rd groups into 1” from an uncomfortable prone position in the cold, with a very lightweight rifle that is squirrely to handle in-position.

I honestly can’t recall the last time I cleaned the barrel.

That’s good shooting sir. I shot friday. It started to calm down a little towards the end of my session. Set up at 100 and total fired was 75 rounds. I tried some federal fusion msr 120s. They look like they will be promising in the future. 7 rounds in 1”. My hand loads were 1” to 1 1/4. I won’t complain. It will get better like before. I feel better now. So many variables. Like I’ve been told anything since MOA out of this platform is not bad. I just want to get back there. And no I will not be cleaning anymore. Lesson learned. I will post a picture of the old gal on this thread if I can figure out how. Lol.

[LR1955]

That’s good shooting sir. I shot friday. It started to calm down a little towards the end of my session. Set up at 100 and total fired was 75 rounds. I tried some federal fusion msr 120s. They look like they will be promising in the future. 7 rounds in 1”. My hand loads were 1” to 1 1/4. I won’t complain. It will get better like before. I feel better now. So many variables. Like I’ve been told anything since MOA out of this platform is not bad. I just want to get back there. And no I will not be cleaning anymore. Lesson learned. I will post a picture of the old gal on this thread if I can figure out how. Lol.

JTB:

One extreme to the other? You will eventually have to clean the barrel. Even sooner clean the bolt carrier and bolt.

All of us clean our rifles. Just not as often as folks have been lead to believe is necessary.

Tell you a place where I cleaned them after shooting. South Georgia. Also Arizona believe it or not because the place I lived had a Swamp Cooler for air conditioning. Heat and humidity are not friends to steel.

LR55

[A5BLASTER]

OP: You have cleaned your JP barrel more times in the past 3 weeks than I have cleaned all of my barrels in the past 3 years I think.

I am not seeing any of the accuracy issues that you are.

I took my Lilja 17.6” Grendel out Monday and Tuesday to shoot in a new area, and checked my zero at 106yds. I shot 2x 5rd groups into 1” from an uncomfortable prone position in the cold, with a very lightweight rifle that is squirrely to handle in-position.

I honestly can’t recall the last time I cleaned the barrel.

I agree with this.

Outside of cleaning the running parts and keeping them lightly lubed.

I dont touch my chamber or bore until the groups start to open up for it's normal size for a 5 shot group.

[LRRPF52]

I live in a very dry climate, so I lube the bolt carrier and that’s about it.

I’m of the mind to keep the bore coppered-up evenly rather than trying to constantly remove it.

For my suppressed Grendel, that needs cleaning inside the action more.

[Klem]

+1

I live close to the beach with a high incidence of salt water corrosion. Working parts get oiled and anti corrosion tabs, vapor capsules, and barrel cord used. Barrels are often left uncleaned however and the copper is deliberately left alone.

[JTB]

I live in a very dry climate, so I lube the bolt carrier and that’s about it.

I’m of the mind to keep the bore coppered-up evenly rather than trying to constantly remove it.

For my suppressed Grendel, that needs cleaning inside the action more.

A long time family friend that is a bench rest shooter told me clean it often with the foaming bore cleaner. He is into bolt guns of course. Plus I’ll tell you guys I overthink stuff a lot. I think like you guys have done you all find your own ways that work. I have ordered a bore snake and will use that between sessions to keep it cleared out a little. I have a log book of all my sessions.

I was reading an article where a sniper instruction was talking about a site in method. 200 yards. One shot per day as often as possible. Write down every detail about that one shot on that day. After a couple days you have it zeroed. And then continue to do that as often as possible in all weather conditions and temps and then throw in different yardages. After a while you have a dope book for that exact rifle in every imaginable condition with cold bore at all kinds of distances. Pretty cool concept. I would have thought shoot as much as possible in all those conditions. He said it does not matter how long you take to take the shot as long as every time you go you make it the best one shot you can possibly shoot. And to call those shots as well. Pretty good article. Very interesting. I swear I’ve burned so much ammo just to see how tight a group I can shoot. All seems pointless compared to that. It helped me and my shooting a lot and my reloading.

[Klem]

JT,

You have not wasted time shooting for goups.

In your second paragraph you are talking two different concepts - precision and accuracy. The 'sniper' is talking about honing accuracy, which is the ability to predict where a bullet will go and drive it around a target. Shooting for group size is precision. In precision, where the bullets land on a target is irrelevant. The aim is getting them as tight as possible. Both are important but are separate things.

[Texcl2]

Very few barrels shoot consistently before they are fouled. There are some rifles that will copper foul due to a bad bore or very high velocity. Then you have to figure out how many rounds to foul the bore and how many rounds till it’s copper fouled. I get rid of guns like that, more trouble than they are worth. I will say I use copper fouling erasing powders in some of my finicky calibers such as .17’s, the stuff works.