07-28-2020, 05:41 PM (This post was last modified: 07-28-2020, 05:53 PM by montana.)
js8588 Wrote:I find them less noisy than stock (or the Damage Industries CS spring), but otherwise, fair enough. The JP SCS (and knockoffs thereof) fall under the same reliability concerns for me as adjustable triggers/gbs/& bcgs. That's just me, though. I'd never tell anyone else it's wrong for them.
Adjustable gas blocks, only lower the port pressure the rifle barrel comes with. They require maintenance, to prevent carbon lock, unlike a standard gas block. Standard gas blocks can be just as un-reliable if the ammo doesn't match the port pressure the rifle was designed for. JP SCP's have been completely reliable in my rifles, with the benefit of smoother operation and the elimination of the buffer retainer detent and spring..
Interesting that spring noise is being discussed here. I am thinking that if at the same time the gun is going off at 170db's, so loud you need hearing protection, that the sound of a much quieter spring vibrating for a second or two afterwards in the background is not really an issue.
Klem Wrote:Interesting that spring noise is being discussed here. I am thinking that if at the same time the gun is going off at 170db's, so loud you need hearing protection, that the sound of a much quieter spring vibrating for a second or two afterwards in the background is not really an issue.
Keep in mind that a lot of folks probably work the action unloaded more than they fire it, so the spring noise becomes a lot more evident. And there's the "feel" after the shot that lingers that a SCS or something similar tends to mitigate. You don't mind it that bad, you get used to it, you tell yourself "at least it's not an AK" until you get behind an AR with a quieter system. Besides, it's just the natural human nature to appreciate the smoothness of the action with a SCS compared to the "gritty" feel of a conventional buffer and spring.
Then there's the rattle of the spring in the tube plus buffer weight "maraca" noises added to the mix when just handling or moving with an AR. I have a SCS system on a Grendel pistol and the only noise the thing makes, even when shaking it hard, is a slight rattle from the QD sling swivels. All the rest of my ARs rattle to varying degrees, and almost all the noise comes from the buffer assembly to some degree or another. Doesn't really make much if any difference in functionality, but the perceived quality the SCS imparts is enough to have me planning on going with SCS in all my ARs.
i bought a couple SCSs for the novelty value and won't replace them with the same device, or purchase any more. Some light application of grease on the standard AR buffer spring accomplishes the same sound damping and I have not noticed any functional difference between the systems.
Klem Wrote:$5 or $140-$210 is a big difference. Surely there's a reason to spend over 20-times more. Something more compelling than the sound it makes.
Ok Klem, you'll happily tell Tommy Triggerjerker and Aaron Indoorrange to spend way more on a precision barrel which they probably can't get any more use out of than a decent budget barrel. Gotcha. Probably recommend $1k+ optics to those same folks too, and $300 mounts, for a little better clarity and more accuracy they can't really harness?
Why do you do this? Because YOU enjoy what those products give you, and set your own criteria. You're not wrong.
But you might want to ease up on folks who enjoy something you don't, or don't need what you need...they're not wrong either.
Klem Wrote:$5 or $140-$210 is a big difference. Surely there's a reason to spend over 20-times more. Something more compelling than the sound it makes.
Having used both I will give my thoughts.
Does normal type buffer springs and buffers work? 100%
Can the JP scs give better results other then not hearing the spring noise in your ear and through your cheekbone? Yes.
Other then removing the spring noise one hears when fireing a ar15.
What I have also noticed on several diffrent grendels ranging from 24 inch with rifle gas all the way down to 12 inch with carbine gas is this.
1. The action if the rifle just becomes super slick and smooth while it's moving.
2. While I don't believe it reduces felt recoil, what I believe is that it changes the duration of the recoil. Meaning it seems to happen faster but with less pop i.e. not as sharp.
3. This is tied into number 2, it very much reduces the amount of movement the muzzle does during and after the shot. I run adjustable gas and lowmass bcg with normal buffers/springs and my guns run very smooth and light recoiling and I can drop in the scs and the recoil impolse and muzzle movement is reduced, while also not effecting my gas amount and reliability.
Is it worth the price? That is up to the owner of the gun. I own 2 SCS and they live in specific rifles but would not have a issue putting them in all my guns and am working on doing that.
Now all that said. A regular type buffer and spring will out live any grendel barrel anyone could buy are make themselves. Not to mention probably 99% of grendel owners will never fire enough rounds to burn out their barrel let alone their buffer and spring in multiple years of service.
Croak Wrote:Ok Klem, you'll happily tell Tommy Triggerjerker and Aaron Indoorrange to spend way more on a precision barrel which they probably can't get any more use out of than a decent budget barrel. Gotcha. Probably recommend $1k+ optics to those same folks too, and $300 mounts, for a little better clarity and more accuracy they can't really harness?
Why do you do this? Because YOU enjoy what those products give you, and set your own criteria. You're not wrong.
But you might want to ease up on folks who enjoy something you don't, or don't need what you need...they're not wrong either.
Just sayin'.
Croak,
I am simply playing Devil's Advocate, which is someone who challenges an opinion with an opposite one. Is it OK that I do this and we still remain cool?
Let me first challenge your assumption of me. I don't stereotype other members of the Forum by their ability to shoot. Nor do I believe we are not all equally entitled to a gun that shoots better than us. Quite the opposite, I think we should all be sourcing guns that shoot better than us. Heck, I am only interested in guns that shoot better than me. If putting rounds where you want them to go is the goal of owning a gun then having a gun that shoots better than you is one less variable you have to worry about when accounting for where those rounds go.
What I don't think highly of is vetigial parts and branding. By that I mean parts that do not add to the accuracy or meaningful functionality of a gun. By branding I mean the nothingness in a part's price tag; like a $200 Nike shoe that costs the manufacturer $10 but the $190 adds no utility to the function of the product. I get manufacturer's need and are entitled to make a reasonable profit but above a 30-50% mark-up and it starts to grate. The SCS is a bit of both don't you think?
Sure, a smooth and quiet cycling action might make the gun more pleasant to cycle and shake, but how much more than $5 do you think that is reasonably worth? Compounding this is the thought that the $100-$200 difference could buy a better barrel, scope and trigger.
Klem Wrote:Interesting that spring noise is being discussed here. I am thinking that if at the same time the gun is going off at 170db's, so loud you need hearing protection, that the sound of a much quieter spring vibrating for a second or two afterwards in the background is not really an issue.
The Tubbs spring resonate when the rifle isn't being fired. If the spring was $15 and actually did something useful I probably wouldn't say anything. I'm for sure not going to spend $200 on a recoil spring...and that is coming from someone that spent $850 on a barrel.
Klem Wrote:Sure, a smooth and quiet cycling action might make the gun more pleasant to cycle and shake, but how much more than $5 do you think that is reasonably worth? Compounding this is the thought that the $100-$200 difference could buy a better barrel, scope and trigger.
It's worth, oh, about $125 more for me. Actually, about $180 more, since I bought the Law Tactical folder version.
I'd say the value proposition was the same for a fair few other folks that bought them over the five or so years the SCS has been on the market.
Why do you reckon folks want one after they try one? I can tell you, it ain't all internet hype. I pretty much ignored JP Enterprises for the most part despite all the press they get, because I don't give a damn about race guns and my (more than $5 BTW) buffers and springs worked fine.
But after a hunt when a friend was showing me his rig with one, I was an instant convert to the SCS. Order placed the next morning.
While I'm sure its profitable for JP, there's a fair bit of machining and materials required to make a SCS. It's not a $5 part in a $125 wrapper like a set of trainers or some trademarked pattern on a sweat-shop handbag.
And it does add value. I enjoy my weapon more with one than without one. That's all the justification I need. I (along with countless others) also spend extra money for a nice quality charging handle and safety selector instead of milspec, neither of which make the weapon shoot better, but it makes the experience with the weapon better. Like I said earlier, your criteria is not wrong, but it's also not universal.
I don't shoot targets just for the sake of shooting targets, range days are not the reason I own firearms. I shoot targets to get zero, check functionality, and hone skills in preparation for using the weapon on living things. A range trip for me is a workout, not a sport. I have no issue with recreational shooting for its own sake, everybody needs a hobby, and if you need a precision barrel to achieve your goals or make your experience better, go for it.
But for myself, a 2MOA gun is all I need. Hell, I can get by with a 4MOA+ gun, and did, for years, professionally and for recreation. It may not be all the gun I deserve in terms of accuracy, but it's all the gun I need.
Klem Wrote:$5 or $140-$210 is a big difference. Surely there's a reason to spend over 20-times more. Something more compelling than the sound it makes.
Klem, for me it is the sum of the parts I put into my rifles.. I micro slic my BCG, upper receiver channel, install an American Gold trigger and the JP SCS. The action smoothness is night and day difference, "compared to mil spec" in my opinion. People are skeptical, until they charge their rifle next to mine. I can also eliminate the buffer retaining pin and spring.. Is it worth spending 20-times more??? It all depends on what we want from our rifle, nothing more..I spend extra for Colt detents instead of cheaper versions. That said, "I use some of the cheapest receivers on the market" as long as they spec out for my need.. Light weight, accuracy, hunting, self defence, better split times in multi gun, bragging rights, etc will determine our needs.. Is the JP SCS, SLR titanium adj gas block, Lilja barrel, LMT BCG, Schmidt Bender scope, necessary compared to Palmetto State Armory parts and a Weaver scope??? That depends on the need, budget, "or better yet" want.. Only the individual can make those choices..
[ATTACH=CONFIG]16528[/ATTACH] Here are a couple of my latest builds, I did earlier this year..The top one has Anderson receivers and the bottom one has an Aero lower and a Yankee Hill upper..
A "2-4MOA" gun with a $200 buffer spring when for the same money you can have a sub-moa gun with a $5 spring, is not something that I will ever understand. But, I agree - each to their own.
07-30-2020, 02:55 AM (This post was last modified: 07-30-2020, 02:58 AM by Croak.)
I'm just going to quit here, no sense preaching to the choir of another church.
But I will note that while 2MOA is good enough, my budget $150 Faxon group-buy 12" barrel with the SCS and $350 Chinese LVPO is closer to 1MOA with factory loads (and a MBT-2S). So spending a couple hundred more on a barrel or several hundred more on optics to maybe halve that isn't a good value proposition to me and my needs.
js8588 Wrote:No. If I'm building something with an adjustable stock, my default preference is Strike Industries Carbine Flatwire buffer spring. If I'm building something with a fixed stock I go with either a Tubbs Flatwire or a Damage Industries chrome silicon spring.
Just my preferences, YMMV.
How are the Strike and Tubb springs different? Tubb says it "fits both carbine and standard length stocks."
I ended up using a Geissele spring and standard buffer weight on the 16 inch Grendel. Mid length gas with non adjustable gas block. I did try different springs and buffer weights. Im going to set up the 18 inch Grendel Im doing now the same but with an adjustable gas block.
Damage Industries used to make AK mag replacement springs, I bought a few dozen of them, very strong, well made. If their buffer springs are as good thats a safe bet.
For a flat wire, Tubbs is hard to beat.
Sprinco & Wolff are also well made.
I also have a Wolff xtra power spring from an older build. From an old Rock River Arms carbine upper that was ridiculously overgassed. Ive stuck it in a few builds over the years just to see how it runs, and it seems it usually causes more problems than its worth.
01-20-2021, 10:54 PM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2021, 11:01 PM by PVBoom.)
From what I was reading over at arf.com, the Tubbs spring helps the gun run smoother. Maybe even Berma-Shave smooth. I will find out, I ordered some to try.
PVBoom Wrote:From what I was reading over at arf.com, the Tubbs spring helps the gun run smoother. Maybe even Berma-Shave smooth. I will find out, I ordered some to try.
