07-12-2020, 01:11 AM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2020, 01:23 AM by R2BRO.)
I am building a piston driven Grendel setup. Here are my requirements for the sighting device for it.
Purpose: be able to effectively and accurately shoot any 18"-24" size circle target from 0-700 yards (obviously its not for sub MOA exercise); while at the same time be lightweight enough for fast CQC swings and aiming (thus-> no any magnification adding weight)
1) it MUST have circle type CQC ring (65/68 MOA circle)
2) it MUST have some sort of additional dot to be able to compensate for >300yrd shootings
3) i do NOT plan to use magnifiers
4) it must NOT be EOTech
5) I "prefer" 1 MOA dots (though 2 MOA center dot might be acceptable to me)
6) it must be >30mm lens
7) infinite eye relief
8) dual scopes on this rifle is NOT acceptable
what i did:
1) bought ROMEO08T, it does cover 1,2 for me, however; the 4 BDC dots kinda blend into one line and it is difficult do discriminate between 2nd and 3rd from top points, its too much! they should have make it 2 dot but not freacking 4! you can select various reticle modes...but unfortunately not just 2-dot mode...
i returned it since it had deformed killflash but thats a different story; otherwise i liked it, the only thing is its center dot is 2 MOA, but its kinda OK. I think i could live with 4 dots too...its just id use top and bottom and middle dots would be useless for me.
2) bought EXPS3-2, ok.. EOTECh is just expensive gimmick and a picky toy, no way id consider it for something serious. I do not even CARE how many operators using it. I received EXPS3-2, and it was behaving weird, its circle and dots were super grainy and glowy and it was projecting circle in front on any dark surface...i could stand in front of turned off TV and literally project red circle on it.
I know i received a defective unit and already in process of return. but after seeing such BS i do not even feel like ordering this again (the ROMEO8T at least worked properly, just killflash was deformed)
(please do NOT discuss this with me and try to convince that EOTech is great, lets just move on)
what else is there:
1) UH-1 from vortex, looks really cool, but its first gen has weird problems: a) it projects its rectangle on nearby objects, b) its reticle disappears to the left c) not confirmed but saw from some reviewers that its not friendly for long range stuff
so... UH-1 GEN II is coming out in July... but here is a thing: it is Holographic... and i see occasionally from various places here and there that Eotech using that tech having issues. so... i don't know if i should go for it or no. but on another side, the way how Vortex is implementing its Holographics solution is different from EOtech so it *MIGHT* be OK.
now... my question: what else is there which would fit my described constraints?
07-12-2020, 02:50 AM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2020, 03:18 AM by VASCAR2.)
Take a look at this Swampfox optics low power variable scope. They have a 1-6, 1-8 or 1-10 power with several options on reticles. A couple of the reticles have a BDC reticle using an E O Tech style of circle dot but an added ranging feature. The 1-10 power might have the ability to shoot out to 700 yards. Your other options might be a Burris 1-6 RT6 or XTR II 1-5 which has a reticle which might suit your needs. Vortex Razor always get good reviews.
You might look for optics with the ACSS reticle. Here is a 4-14x44 FFP from Primary Arms to give you info about the reticle. Trijicon is using this reticle.
You won't find a magnified optic with 'infinite eye relief'.
When guys were using the ACOG in CQC, once they got used to the ACOG they didn't have an issue with engagements at close quarters. Most tried the gross iron sight put on the ACOG but went back to looking through it because that stupid notch and post thing that Trijicon put on the ACOG was totally useless. They taught themselves to use the optic and were just as fast as when using a M-68 sight.
BTW -- go under about 10X and you will have a real hard time seeing a target at 700 unless it is standing totally still and is in complete contrast with the background.
You seem to have discovered that there is a trade off between magnification and reticle patterns. The lower the magnification, the more dots and lines in a reticle get bunched up and become hard to see and with it your sight picture.
Oh yes, one minute dots will become very difficult for you to see in limited visibility and unless the reticle is illuminated, tend to blend into dark colored targets. Unless your optic is ten plus power. But then your CQB stuff gets problematic.
In addition to LR1955 good info... the "light enough for swings" requirement I'm confused about. What does that mean? I can swing my grendel with a 3-18 just fine enough to hit a running coyote up close.
It doesn't have the circle type CQC ring but I sure like the Aimpoint CompM4 on my M4 Carbine. This Trijicon Red Dot might be closer to your needs but it's 25mm, not 30 & it's not cheap! You might have to compromise some of your requirements to get your best possible sight.
I guess Im an idiot because when you said you didnt want to use a magnifier I thought you just meant you didnt want a magnifier with a red dot. The only way I could see anything at 700 yards with a red dot is if the object was in an open field. Optics choices are full of compromises, hope you find something that suits your needs.
Interesting about requirement #4, because as far as I know, EOTech makes the only red dot with a two dot option. Let us know if you find what you're looking for.
Paul Peloquin
Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?
VASCAR2 Wrote:I guess Im an idiot because when you said you didnt want to use a magnifier I thought you just meant you didnt want a magnifier with a red dot. The only way I could see anything at 700 yards with a red dot is if the object was in an open field. Optics choices are full of compromises, hope you find something that suits your needs.
No, that is the common interpretation.
Magnifier is a term used for a separate device that magnifies an unmagnified optic like a holosite or a red dot.
Scopes with "magnification" are not referred to as magnifiers.
Also, you were (sorry Apple) using that EoTech wrong. You don't focus on the circle-dot, you focus on the target, and it clears right up. The grain when you focus on the reticle is an artifact of a true no-parallax, laser hologram, and is a non-issue when you're actually shooting at targets and focusing properly.
07-13-2020, 11:49 PM (This post was last modified: 07-13-2020, 11:52 PM by drewthebrave.)
Every optic is a compromise. Your goal of CQB speed, infinite eye relief, and zero magnification have significant tradeoffs, which will make it hard to be effective at long range. While you can definitely shoot targets at long range with irons or a red dot, it's going to be difficult without an effective reticle. For what you want, the reticle will be the biggest single factor that determines your effectiveness at range.
Croak Wrote:Primary Arms Cyclops with ACSS BDC sounds like it might work for you.
Also, you were (sorry Apple) using that EoTech wrong. You don't focus on the circle-dot, you focus on the target, and it clears right up. The grain when you focus on the reticle is an artifact of a true no-parallax, laser hologram, and is a non-issue when you're actually shooting at targets and focusing properly.
Agree on the EOTech. When you use it in a course of fire (not on your couch), the grainy image disappears. EOTech has my favorite RDS reticle, though my Holosun 507 is pretty close.
The Cyclops reticle's first line below the circle/chevron equates a 700 yard holdover on my Strelok app with a 200 yard zero. That's a lot of empty space between your 50/200 yard aimpoint and your 700 yard aiming point.
I think the better option would be an Eotech EXPS3-4 reticle. Here's what I see with a 200 yard zero with American Gunner from my 18" Grendel:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]16451[/ATTACH]
You can hate on EOTech all you want, but they're your best bet with the -4 reticle.
Honestly? I think you'd be better served with a 1-6x LPVO.
Also worth noting on the EXPS3-4 right from their site:
"Use this ballistic reticle with 5.56 Nato/.223 cal with 62 gr M855 FMJ at roughly 2,680 fps with a 14.5" barrel. For ordering this reticle, the model codes will end in -4. Aiming dots on the 4-dot reticle may not be distinguishable without magnification."
Unless you have super human vision the entire exercise at distance is pretty iffy unless are giant targets in a barren setting.
Last month at a mid-range (200-620 yards) PRS format gas gun match there was a shooter in my squad using an EOTech with no magnifier and he had a pretty terrible time as he couldn't see the targets well, even at less than 250 yards. After a squad or two shoots a stage much of the paint is gone and things start to really blend in with the rocks, shadows and vegetation around them. The Red dot/1x/Iron sight classes exist to allow folks to try the match out, no one does very well there compared to classes with magnified optics. He normally shoots 3-gun so is all close targets and maybe the occasional 100 yard shot on a full size IPSC so an un-magnified EOTech does well for him at that game.
I agree with Drew that an illuminated LPVO (or the EOTech with a magnifier) is going to better allow you to accomplish the task of shooting things at 1-700 yards.
1), Regarding EOTech: i *am* familiar that graininess is when you focus on reticle but in my case graininess was always, plus, i will repeat again, that EOTech sight i got was literally ligthing a red circle on nearby objects 1 yard away.. it was definitely a defective unit.
2) yes, my initial constraints are maybe too tough, so, if i omit the requirement of "big screen" or 30mm lens, then options are, as noted here:
PA Cyclops ACSS
Burris AR-1X
3) Or... if i reduce the requirement #2 (>300yrd capability)
then i can either get Trijicon MRO HD (with circle, but 25mm isntead of 30mm lens)
at that point though..any red dot will work.
anyway...i do have 6.5G build with 3-15x optics already...so...maybe for this build ill just have to go with what i can get practically and make tradeoffs
i have Aimpoint PRO sitting on a shelf doing nothing, ill put it in, zero it at 25 yards (or zero at 50 yards with 1.1" shooting high) and call it a day. ill have 0-300 solid coverage with 30mm proven device.
no big CQC circle...but... well, ok for now. maybe will wait until Trijicon comes up with something 30mm+circle+yet light weight.
1), Regarding EOTech: i *am* familiar that graininess is when you focus on reticle but in my case graininess was always, plus, i will repeat again, that EOTech sight i got was literally ligthing a red circle on nearby objects 1 yard away.. it was definitely a defective unit.
I'm really interested in seeing pics of this occurring...
