Training Under Physical Stress

[Schwag173]

The most important ingredients missing from every practical firearms course or competition I have attended are:

1) Fear of imminent bodily harm or death
2) Pain from injury

They are extremely difficult to produce in a training environment, although ...

The possible exception to this is paintball and/or SIMunitions. While they aren't live-fire, I was always strongly motivated to avoid getting hit. Face shield/helmets are a must, but getting thwacked in the thigh, arm or nads with a projectile was a real concern. And the colder the temp, the harder the projectile is. It can hurt, been there ...

[txgunner00]

Simunitions are no joke. Every time I got hit I bled. I learned quickly how to not get hit.

[LRRPF52]

The best simunitions force-on-force exercises are conducted with shirts off, as the hero mentality with the pads and protective gear disappears real quick. There was a guy who owned and ran a range complex outside the Bragg area that used to do this when he saw guys doing things that they normally wouldn't do under fire.

I've witnessed certain units specifically targeting exposed limbs and hands to get around this problem, when everyone was fully-kitted up. Good training-totally different than a BS MILES gear exercise. MILES will earn someone a slot in hell, whoever invented it.

[bwaites]

Paintball with TShirts and gyms shorts, cups optional. Face masks required. No other padding or shields.

Some guys can run through the hail of paintballs, even then. For them, refrigerated paintballs seems to solve the problem!

[LRRPF52]

We need taser paint balls and sims. I had an idea I was keeping close to my vest, even though it was on Starship Troopers, but I think it was debuted at SHOT this year. It's a laser engagement system that interfaces with a suit you wear, that shocks the snot out of you. I wanted to do a sublayer with electrodes running throughout the surface area, to simulate accurate hits anywhere on target.

[txgunner00]

The best simunitions force-on-force exercises are conducted with shirts off, as the hero mentality with the pads and protective gear disappears real quick. There was a guy who owned and ran a range complex outside the Bragg area that used to do this when he saw guys doing things that they normally wouldn't do under fire.

I've witnessed certain units specifically targeting exposed limbs and hands to get around this problem, when everyone was fully-kitted up. Good training-totally different than a BS MILES gear exercise. MILES will earn someone a slot in hell, whoever invented it.

No joke. Some of the most worthless garbage I've ever dealt with.

[txgunner00]

Paintball with TShirts and gyms shorts, cups optional. Face masks required. No other padding or shields.

Some guys can run through the hail of paintballs, even then. For them, refrigerated paintballs seems to solve the problem!

Oooo- getting awfully brave there... especially with someone that likes to play dirty from time to time. Not that I know anyone like that.:o

[txgunner00]

We need taser paint balls and sims. I had an idea I was keeping close to my vest, even though it was on Starship Troopers, but I think it was debuted at SHOT this year. It's a laser engagement system that interfaces with a suit you wear, that shocks the snot out of you. I wanted to do a sublayer with electrodes running throughout the surface area, to simulate accurate hits anywhere on target.

Now THAT sounds like some good training!

Beep, Beep, Beep. ZZZZZtttTTTT. Ahhhhhhh! LOL

Only down side is you could take cover behind what would normally only be concealment, but that's a problem with any of them.

[Variable]

The best simunitions force-on-force exercises are conducted with shirts off, as the hero mentality with the pads and protective gear disappears real quick. There was a guy who owned and ran a range complex outside the Bragg area that used to do this when he saw guys doing things that they normally wouldn't do under fire.

I've witnessed certain units specifically targeting exposed limbs and hands to get around this problem, when everyone was fully-kitted up. Good training-totally different than a BS MILES gear exercise. MILES will earn someone a slot in hell, whoever invented it.

I like my agencies sims training. Ours is pretty good in my opinion. When we go through the shoot houses in Quantico we aren't allowed to wear any padding, and we are also checked to make sure. We wear the face mask and throat protector only. We do wear our BDUs though, and no one volunteers to go through it in a t-shirt!LOL.

I did shoot the living dog snot out of one of our instructors who was crazy enough to jump out at us with two glocks blazing in some kinda weird Hollywood move once. He was only wearing a polo shirt and some royal robins, and he looked like he went through a pile of broken glass with hornets in it after we stopped shooting.LOL. I actually felt bad for him once I saw how bad he got pasted. His arms were shredded and his chest and back were really bad. I get so wound up doing that stuff that I couldn't get off the trigger soon enough. He was close when he popped out, and I shot him 11 times before he could make himself fall all the way down. My supe was up front with me and he shot him three times too. We had to count the remaining rounds in our mags to figure it out.

[txgunner00]

I like my agencies sims training. Ours is pretty good in my opinion. When we go through the shoot houses in Quantico we aren't allowed to wear any padding, and we are also checked to make sure. We wear the face mask and throat protector only. We do wear our BDUs though, and no one volunteers to go through it in a t-shirt!LOL.

I did shoot the living dog snot out of one of our instructors who was crazy enough to jump out at us with two glocks blazing in some kinda weird Hollywood move once. He was only wearing a polo shirt and some royal robins, and he looked like he went through a pile of broken glass with hornets in it after we stopped shooting.LOL. I actually felt bad for him once I saw how bad he got pasted. His arms were shredded and his chest and back were really bad. I get so wound up doing that stuff that I couldn't get off the trigger soon enough. He was close when he popped out, and I shot him 11 times before he could make himself fall all the way down. My supe was up front with me and he shot him three times too. We had to count the remaining rounds in our mags to figure it out.

DAMN. I bet he regretted that in the morning.

We had a brain donor in my unit, as everyone does, that though it would be funny to "execute" a sergeant nobody liked. Shot him at point blank range in the top of his head and it triggered a seizure. Scarry shit. Brain donor got NJP.

[LRRPF52]

I like my agencies sims training. Ours is pretty good in my opinion. When we go through the shoot houses in Quantico we aren't allowed to wear any padding, and we are also checked to make sure. We wear the face mask and throat protector only. We do wear our BDUs though, and no one volunteers to go through it in a t-shirt!LOL.

I did shoot the living dog snot out of one of our instructors who was crazy enough to jump out at us with two glocks blazing in some kinda weird Hollywood move once. He was only wearing a polo shirt and some royal robins, and he looked like he went through a pile of broken glass with hornets in it after we stopped shooting.LOL. I actually felt bad for him once I saw how bad he got pasted. His arms were shredded and his chest and back were really bad. I get so wound up doing that stuff that I couldn't get off the trigger soon enough. He was close when he popped out, and I shot him 11 times before he could make himself fall all the way down. My supe was up front with me and he shot him three times too. We had to count the remaining rounds in our mags to figure it out.

That's the right answer. I will say that face shots should be avoided, even though you're wearing masks, and use masks, not just goggles. I kid from Ranger Regiment had a sims go under his Bolle goggles, and it damaged his eye pretty bad. I don't know if he recovered or not from it, but it was pretty serious. This was some pre-deployment training at Bragg in 2002, IIRC. Better to pass that lesson on from hearing it, than wearing it.

[bwaites]

Back 10-15 years ago I played a lot of paintball, and one injury that we all were scared to death of were eye injuries. However, the eye and the testicle actually are very similar in density and toughness. While we only allowed players to play who played with full face masks, some players chose to go without cups.

Well, they did until a guy posted his story online, including pictures, of his testicular injury. 300 FPS doesn't sound fast when you are used to discussing 2-3000 FPS, but when a paintball hits at close to that velocity, tremendous trauma ensues. Its a testament to how well designed we are that sometimes there isn't even a welt or bruise.

Sims, paintballs, even airsoft pellets can do tremendous damage, especially at the ranges that most hits happen.

They are good training if used properly. At one point, there were enough of us playing competitively that we tried to talk the local sherriffs and PD's into using us as a hostage taker/terrorists aggressors. I wasn't available, but the guys that played said that the poor cops took a serious beating, and wouldn't try it again. The regular paintballers were MUCH more aggressive and focused than the cops, who simply hadn't had that kind of experience previously. Some of them began playing competetive paintball because of the experience, while others bad mouthed the paintball group as cheaters.

LRRPF and I have discussed this previously, but it comes down to being willing to keep going, period. Most cops have to work hard to develop that mentality in the face of fire, and its not natural to those who have not been soldiers previously, especially.

[Variable]

Back 10-15 years ago I played a lot of paintball, and one injury that we all were scared to death of were eye injuries. However, the eye and the testicle actually are very similar in density and toughness. While we only allowed players to play who played with full face masks, some players chose to go without cups.

Well, they did until a guy posted his story online, including pictures, of his testicular injury. 300 FPS doesn't sound fast when you are used to discussing 2-3000 FPS, but when a paintball hits at close to that velocity, tremendous trauma ensues. Its a testament to how well designed we are that sometimes there isn't even a welt or bruise.

Sims, paintballs, even airsoft pellets can do tremendous damage, especially at the ranges that most hits happen.

They are good training if used properly. At one point, there were enough of us playing competitively that we tried to talk the local sherriffs and PD's into using us as a hostage taker/terrorists aggressors. I wasn't available, but the guys that played said that the poor cops took a serious beating, and wouldn't try it again. The regular paintballers were MUCH more aggressive and focused than the cops, who simply hadn't had that kind of experience previously. Some of them began playing competetive paintball because of the experience, while others bad mouthed the paintball group as cheaters.

LRRPF and I have discussed this previously, but it comes down to being willing to keep going, period. Most cops have to work hard to develop that mentality in the face of fire, and its not natural to those who have not been soldiers previously, especially.

I forgot about cups. Those are allowed, but I've never worn one. I don't remember anyone else using one either. I did fold up a chintzy hand towel and stuff it in my pants the first time we did it, but I haven't since.

My main real complaint about sims or paintball (and I know there's nothing really that could be done about it) is that concealment becomes cover. I constantly harp about it to anyone around me when we train. When someone is concealed around the corner I won't wait for them to pop back out. I'll shoot them through the corner (depending on the circumstances of course). Plywood and sheetrock are not cover, and most of the the structures in my duty environment aren't either. I always worry about cops treating a bad guys concealment as cover.

[Schwag173]

... Plywood and sheetrock are not cover, and most of the the structures in my duty environment aren't either. I always worry about cops treating a bad guys concealment as cover.

Exactly; train as you fight, fight as you train. Years ago, I arranged for my local LE training program to be held at a rural rifle club that let us drive our patrol-cars right out onto the range. It was best for the guys I was training because that's 95% of our shooting incidents - in and around patrol-cars. Anyway, things went great for a couple of years until one guy accidentally put a nice clean .40" hole through his passenger-door mirror (didn't notice it until the next day). The pencil-pushers then put the halt on my training and put us back on the centuries-old static firing-line paper-target routine. Instead of chalking up a rare $100 repair expense as an accident and the price of effective, possibly life-saving training .... they'd rather mandate training that was valuable only on paper. Gotta love office-dwellers ...

[txgunner00]

Back 10-15 years ago I played a lot of paintball, and one injury that we all were scared to death of were eye injuries. However, the eye and the testicle actually are very similar in density and toughness. While we only allowed players to play who played with full face masks, some players chose to go without cups.

Well, they did until a guy posted his story online, including pictures, of his testicular injury. 300 FPS doesn't sound fast when you are used to discussing 2-3000 FPS, but when a paintball hits at close to that velocity, tremendous trauma ensues. Its a testament to how well designed we are that sometimes there isn't even a welt or bruise.

Sims, paintballs, even airsoft pellets can do tremendous damage, especially at the ranges that most hits happen.

They are good training if used properly. At one point, there were enough of us playing competitively that we tried to talk the local sherriffs and PD's into using us as a hostage taker/terrorists aggressors. I wasn't available, but the guys that played said that the poor cops took a serious beating, and wouldn't try it again. The regular paintballers were MUCH more aggressive and focused than the cops, who simply hadn't had that kind of experience previously. Some of them began playing competetive paintball because of the experience, while others bad mouthed the paintball group as cheaters.

LRRPF and I have discussed this previously, but it comes down to being willing to keep going, period. Most cops have to work hard to develop that mentality in the face of fire, and its not natural to those who have not been soldiers previously, especially.

Exactly; train as you fight, fight as you train. Years ago, I arranged for my local LE training program to be held at a rural rifle club that let us drive our patrol-cars right out onto the range. It was best for the guys I was training because that's 95% of our shooting incidents - in and around patrol-cars. Anyway, things went great for a couple of years until one guy accidentally put a nice clean .40" hole through his passenger-door mirror (didn't notice it until the next day). The pencil-pushers then put the halt on my training and put us back on the centuries-old static firing-line paper-target routine. Instead of chalking up a rare $100 repair expense as an accident and the price of effective, possibly life-saving training .... they'd rather mandate training that was valuable only on paper. Gotta love office-dwellers ...

This is a sad testament to how most people, even LEOs, don't live in the real world.

[LRRPF52]

Variable, I'm 100% with you on cover vs. concealment. I remember playing OPFOR for 2nd Ranger Battalion in Panama in 1997. We had set-up jungle patrol lanes, where we made contact with them, and they would execute a react-to-contact battle drill, followed by squad attack, where they used fire and maneuver to close with and destroy the enemy (us). We started blank, and then set up E-type and Ivan targets where we had been for them to go live. We had been using these huge trees with the fanned out bases that look like walls you can hide in between, for "cover".

Nope. After going back to our positions to do another blank-fire for the next squad, there were holes passing through our "cover" like it wasn't even there, and this was from 5.56 weapons. It cut through layer after layer of very large, water-rich trees like they were paper. It was a very sobering lesson in cover vs. concealment for me, as I realized that had I been there, I would have been hit with projectiles that still had a lot of energy in them.

Same with cars & most walls. Bricks and boulders seem to be the only real cover I can think of off the top of my head.

[Schwag173]

Engine blocks and to a lesser degree undercarriage/tire rims. Unless they specifically add armor, car-doors are worthless. I will say that weird things can happen. Personal experience: On a live-fire ex many, many years ago, my LEO was training In-Service at our academy and running us through a canned exercise using an old junker patrol-car that had been towed out onto the range. During the shoot we were to engage targets with our pistol from the driver's seat then retrieve the AR15 from the trunk (yes, this is where it used to be carried back then). From the open trunk, using the rear quarter-panel for "cover" we were to engage a few more targets. Silly me, I was a little too hunkered down behind my cover and the muzzle wasn't clearing the top edge of the trunk rim. I put three rounds of M193 55-grain FMJ into the upper edge of that car body at a range of about 3 inches and they did not penetrate all the way through. They went in, but never came out. It had to have been how the sheet metal was folded just right at that spot.

[LRRPF52]

I can see that. The m193 has such a thin jacket, that an extreme oblique shot like that could likely cause jacket sheer early, especially at over 3000fps. When it hits perpendicular to auto surfaces, it often goes through all the way. When it hits people, it's ugly.

[bwaites]

Plus, some of those old cop cars were HEAVY steel compared to what they use now. From what I've read, .357 Mag was developed partly because cops complained that .38 wouldn't penetrate car doors.

I can hardly think of a car door today that it wouldn't penetrate!

[Schwag173]

Plus, some of those old cop cars were HEAVY steel compared to what they use now. From what I've read, .357 Mag was developed partly because cops complained that .38 wouldn't penetrate car doors.

I can hardly think of a car door today that it wouldn't penetrate!

Hey, hEY, HEY!! Jeez, how old do you think I AM? It was a 1997 Ford Crown Victoria that had been run to death on our drive-course.