Who are the real killers??

[montana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVY3gjr4...e=youtu.be

[Dinny]

The video has no audio on my computer.

[montana]

The video has no audio on my computer.

Works on mine! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVY3gjr4oHs

Explains the problem with wolf reintroduction in the US, Canada and the lack of predator management in the modern world, "with low informed animal lovers mentality" from the cities.

[A5BLASTER]

Lord have mercy how did wild animals survive without modern control techniques us white men brought to this continent.

I mean how do people explain the huge herds of elk,mule deer,pronghorn and moose that our ancestors killed millions of when they got here? There was wolf's and bears back then too. Heck I bet there was more back then compared to today.

The failure of man, his he thinks the world needs him to make it work correctly.

[montana]

Lord have mercy how did wild animals survive without modern control techniques us white men brought to this continent.

I mean how do people explain the huge herds of elk,mule deer,pronghorn and moose that our ancestors killed millions of when they got here? There was wolf's and bears back then too. Heck I bet there was more back then compared to today.

The failure of man, his he thinks the world needs him to make it work correctly.

With the alternating of eco systems favouring the wolf and not the ungulates as described in the video, the out come is obvious. There was a reason they had bounties on wolves for decades and spent a fortune controlling them. In a wilderness setting wolves are needed, "but out of that environment" they definitely need to have their population controlled. If big game, sport hunting and endless money given to compensate cattle ranchers is not important, "then by all means" let nature follow it's course. The same debate goes for forest management vs forest preservation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_conti...e=emb_logo

[stanc]

Lord have mercy how did wild animals survive without modern control techniques us white men brought to this continent.

I mean how do people explain the huge herds of elk,mule deer,pronghorn and moose that our ancestors killed millions of when they got here? There was wolf's and bears back then too. Heck I bet there was more back then compared to today.

The failure of man, his he thinks the world needs him to make it work correctly.

Kinda, sorta, but not exactly. Man created the problem. Man is trying to fix it.

The trouble is, critters like wolves are not the problem. Man is the problem.

There are not too many wolves. There are too many people.

Works on mine! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVY3gjr4oHs

Explains the problem with wolf reintroduction in the US, Canada and the lack of predator management in the modern world, "with low informed animal lovers mentality" from the cities.

It looks like "predator management" is an excuse to kill animals that some folks enjoy killing.

[Double Naught Spy]

Kinda, sorta, but not exactly. Man created the problem. Man is trying to fix it.

The trouble is, critters like wolves are not the problem. Man is the problem.

There are not too many wolves. There are too many people.

By and large, humans are notoriously poor stewards of the land. What we want to be good stewards of is not nature, but of a zoo with artificial environments and animals controlled, only nature abhors a zoo and controlled environments. We are constantly in need of controlling nature because we have knocked it so far out of balance and we because, oddly, we believe that nature needs to be fixed and stagnant, failing to embrace the fact that nature ebbs and flows. We don't want it to do either. We don't want the bison or squirrels to migrate. We don't want the rivers to change course. When we don't like nature, we 'fix' it.

We want to have the beauty of nature, but fail to realize that part of the beauty of nature is that it is untamed and dangerous. Far too many people are demanding of a kinder, gentler nature, which is no nature at all.

[montana]

Wow, did anyone actually watch the video??? If you disagree, I'm all open for suggestions other than people depopulation, hating on people who engage in predator control or bull dozing homes, infrastructures and turning the country back to wilderness.

[stanc]

Wow, did anyone actually watch the video???

Yup. From start to finish.

If you disagree, I'm all open for suggestions other than people depopulation, hating on people who engage in predator control or bull dozing homes, infrastructures and turning the country back to wilderness.

So you don't want to address the real cause of the problem, you just want an excuse/justification to kill wolves.

It was not wolves that built roads into the wilderness, or deforested the wildlife habitat with mining and logging.

[montana]

Yup. From start to finish.


So you don't want to address the real cause of the problem, you just want an excuse/justification to kill wolves.

It was not wolves that built roads into the wilderness, or deforested the wildlife habitat with mining and logging.

The video explained very clearly why predator control was important if the balance between wolves and ungulates was to be maintained. It explained the causes and reason for the unbalance with unchecked predator population in non wilderness areas. How would you obtain a balance between the wolf, ungulate population and ranching community?? I actually like wolves, Grizzly bears and mountain lions, but I also understand they have to be managed. The woods in Montana would not be the same without them. I also like moose, elk, deer, bighorn sheep, mountain goats, and other woodland animals. What would your solution or ideas be Stan?? People also need wood products, minerals and beef. If predator control is not the answer, please enlighten me on better management ideas.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yeah, I watched it. The guy very clearly pointed out several times that the problem is people, but he doesn't want to manage people. He wants to manage wolves.

[Lemonaid]

DNS, that guy's problem is more wolves than wanted, and many areas have more wild hogs than wanted, so put them together?
Are there predators that prey on the wild hogs? other than yourself?

[montana]

Yeah, I watched it. The guy very clearly pointed out several times that the problem is people, but he doesn't want to manage people. He wants to manage wolves.

This is a typical response of many emotional people today, who have no solution. People are the problem! OK, so do we stop logging, mining and ranching?? Do we put thousands of people out of work, "destroying communities in the process" who are reliant on those industries??? Do we import our resources, "while exporting problems to other nations" while running up our debt?? Or do we manage predators like other big game animals, with controlled hunting and increasing wildlife management revenue. Why most people support managing big game, with a solid history of success, "but become belligerent and angry when applied to predators" is beyond me. When game animals over populate, the game department increase hunting tags. When the big game population becomes low, they issue fewer hunting tags. When predators increase and over populate, "wolves become sacred" like the cows in India. Crazy.

[stanc]

The video explained very clearly why predator control was important if the balance between wolves and ungulates was to be maintained. It explained the causes and reason for the unbalance with unchecked predator population in non wilderness areas. How would you obtain a balance between the wolf, ungulate population and ranching community?? I actually like wolves, Grizzly bears and mountain lions, but I also understand they have to be managed.

My best friend is an avid hunter, but he doesn't use politically correct euphemisms like "manage" and "harvest" when he talks about wanting to kill animals.

I rather doubt that anyone who truly likes wolves would actually advocate killing them.

What would your solution or ideas be Stan?? People also need wood products, minerals and beef. If predator control is not the answer, please enlighten me on better management ideas.

During my college years, my chemistry lab partner (who coincidentally later went to Minnesota or Wisconsin to work with wolves) talked me into going with her to see a documentary titled (IIRC) Predators of the Sea. The opening scene with the title was not a shark or some such critter, but a scuba diver swimming in the deep blue. I was the only person in the audience who laughed out loud at the irony.

As A5B noted, wolves and other animals seemed to coexist quite well before Europeans came to this continent and decided that they needed to "manage" wildlife. If you really wish to engage in predator control as a preferred solution, I'd suggest that you "manage" the apex predator: Man. This problem -- and many other issues -- would solve themselves if the human population were greatly reduced.

[LR1955]

Guys:

Either keep this on topic or it will be locked.

I forbid you guys to start arguing over the value of human life verses predatory animals.

LR55

[montana]

My best friend is an avid hunter, but he doesn't use politically correct euphemisms like "manage" and "harvest" when he talks about wanting to kill animals.

I rather doubt that anyone who truly likes wolves would actually advocate killing them.




During my college years, my chemistry lab partner (who coincidentally later went to Minnesota or Wisconsin to work with wolves) talked me into going with her to see a documentary titled (IIRC) Predators of the Sea. The opening scene with the title was not a shark or some such critter, but a scuba diver swimming in the deep blue. I was the only person in the audience who laughed out loud at the irony.

As A5B noted, wolves and other animals seemed to coexist quite well before Europeans came to this continent and decided that they needed to "manage" wildlife. If you really wish to engage in predator control as a preferred solution, I'd suggest that you "manage" the apex predator: Man. This problem -- and many other issues -- would solve themselves if the human population were greatly reduced.

My son works for the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks, and has tried to explain to me the impossible task when dealing with the public. I now, completely understand. I'm on the Grendel forum which is a forum about a hunting cartridge for the AR platform. I have a former educated gun writer who's only response to wolf over population is to manage people, "what ever that means since he refuses to elaborate"and accuses me of being some kind of hidden sadistic animal killer. A pig, coyote, beaver, Bobcat hunter extolling the failure of mans arrogance to manage animals "as he post videos of himself killing pigs, coyotes, beaver, and Bobcat" to manage them. Once again, "the info I post takes a left turn and falls down another rabbit whole" of emotional pointless blatter with zero constructive solutions or ideas. I'm at a lost for words! https://thewesternhuntsman.com/2020/01/2...FGiC6E-zMc

[roo_ster]

I rather doubt that anyone who truly likes wolves would actually advocate killing them.

If you think on it a bit, I am sure you will see the error in that statement.

Example One:
I love dogs & cats, but many times the solution to a dog or cat problem is to kill them. For instance, the local shelter has limited space and can not hold an infinite number of critters indefinitely. Some of them (maybe most of them) end up being killed. Usually the least sociable first, then the old or infirm, then the healthy. Sure, we have programs to encourage sterilization, registration & chipping, and such. A couple decades past, we almost had it licked. Then new & different people, with little regard for responsible pet ownership, started to move in. Now it is worse than ever. And half the stray dogs look like APBTs or APBT mixes.


Example Two:
A farm dog, a beagle, got into the habit of killing my grandpa's chickens. He would not stop, despite many attempts to get him to quit. Eventually, that dog was put down, despite my grandpa's affections toward his dogs.

[stanc]

If you think on it a bit, I am sure you will see the error in that statement.

I thought about it before I typed it. I see no error in it.

The college classmate I mentioned liked wolves, and she would never have advocated killing them in response to their killing moose, deer, etc.

I, too, like wolves, and would never have considered shooting one had I come across any.

Example:
Once when a friend and I were harassing the jackrabbit population in the SoCal desert, I spooked a coyote, which made the mistake of running up the hill that we were on.

My buddy emptied his Winchester '94 at the speeding critter as it passed by, but he missed with each shot. He shouted at me to shoot, but I refused because I like coyotes.

Example One:
I love dogs & cats, but many times the solution to a dog or cat problem is to kill them.

<deleted>

The problem of unwanted domestic pets is off topic.

My son works for the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks, and has tried to explain to me the impossible task when dealing with the public. I now, completely understand. I'm on the Grendel forum which is a forum about a hunting cartridge for the AR platform. I have a former educated gun writer who's only response to wolf over population is to manage people, "what ever that means since he refuses to elaborate"and accuses me of being some kind of hidden sadistic animal killer.

1. I never accused you of being either hidden or sadistic.

2. I did not refuse to elaborate. You said to enlighten you on better management ideas. That's what I did. I suggested a management idea which would solve numerous issues.

3. The wolf "problem" described in the video was caused by humans. Killing a few wolves will not solve the problem. That's like taking aspirin for a headache caused by a tumor.

The root of the problem is unrestrained human population growth, which causes the destruction of wildlife habitat from mining, logging, road building, etc, as noted in the video.

A pig, coyote, beaver, Bobcat hunter extolling the failure of mans arrogance to manage animals "as he post videos of himself killing pigs, coyotes, beaver, and Bobcat" to manage them. Once again, "the info I post takes a left turn and falls down another rabbit whole" of emotional pointless blatter with zero constructive solutions or ideas.

Once again, you are projecting. It is your posts which have been very emotional, not DNS's or mine.

[LR1955]

Am locking this thread because it will now turn into another argument over semantics and who said what and when.

And Stan -- it is you causing this. No one else.

LR55