PRS equipment questions

[Flight Medic]

Im fairly new to precision shooting. I mean, I did qualify for "Rifle Expert" with BUIS back in the days of my youth in the USMC, but I'm brand new to shooting with a high-power optic. I'm trying to learn all the ins-and-outs of plinking targets at long range, but I'm finding it a bit overwhelming (atmospheric conditions, "Coriolis effect", gyroscopic spin, multiple wind values, updrafts, downdrafts, etc, etc). I mean, I understand the terminology, but exactly how to apply it all is challenging to say the least. I want to give myself (and my aging eyes) every advantage possible, so I will invest in whatever equipment I need to do this proper.

I purchased a ballistic app, but while perusing it today I noticed it requires a lot of input I would not be able provide (or would have to guesstimate). Wondering how many target shooters here use a Weather Meter in addition to their ballistic app. I saw a few different models of the "Kestrel" brand, but not sure which one would be best for my application. For instance, is the rotating vane accessory helpful?

Next, is the muzzle velocity listed on the ammo box sufficient, or is having a chronograph the only way to truly get accurate data on your ammo?

One last question... if you're shooting at a range that already has the targets measured out, is a laser range finder necessary?

Any advice greatly appreciated

[BCHunter]

The short answer is your shooting solution is only as good as the data you put in.

So on site current wind is important.

Velocity on a box is always exaggerated for best conditions and usually 24" barrel. Do you reload?,...chronograph is important here if you do.

Having said that does all the equipment cost justify your use?
Is this for competition with purse on line?
Is it life or death situation, is it ethical to take a long range shot at game without all information?
Are you just testing your and your rigs limitations?
Answering these questions will determine what equipment you need.

[Klem]

Medic,

It is down the rabbit hole for sure, and how deep you want to go depends on your interest and shooting context. As a civilian, it also depends on how deep your pockets are.

All these variables you mention; Coriolis etc have always affected your shooting however for one reason or another you re only becoming aware or concerned about them now. While the bullet is in flight the earth is turning beneath it and the target will not be in exactly the same spot by the time the bullet reaches it. But this only matters with long range shooting and prior to ballistics programs it was all too-hard to calculate such a small influence.

External programs predict what happens to the bullet once it leaves the muzzle. Internal programs predict what happens inside the gun on firing.

External ballistics Programs
These apps are cheap as chips for your smart phone. I have two; the phone version of JBM Ballistics and Bullet Flight. I use them to get on paper at distance however as a predictor they are rarely exactly perfect.

Internal Ballistics programs
I use Quickload on the computer to regularly to simulate loads and compare products like powders.

Environmental conditions are variables that affect bullet flight all the way to the target, especially wind. A kestrel is a portable weather station that gives you information about weather at the firing point. Kestrel has models that have inbuilt external ballistics programs for shooters. They automatically interface weather data with the ballistics program to give you a solution. I use a ballistics Kestrel and find it useful. I don't use their advertised frame that acts as a vane (it seems too much effort for what it's worth). For working out prevailing wind direction I look at indicators like flags, trees, grass and other people's spinners, or tie a long piece of plastic tape downrange, or poke a reticulation flag in the ground. or simply hold the Kestrel up and watch where the Kestrel's lanyard is being pushed. Confirm this with the feel of the wind on your face and/or hold up a wet finger. So yes, the rotating Kestrel frame would be useful I guess, but I don't use it because there are less effortful ways of figuring out prevailing wind direction (if you don't have a portable weather station you can even check the weather via your phone for current conditions).

The MV on the ammo box is to be used as a ready reckoner only. It is based on a test barrel length that is probably different to yours, plus a few more FPS added by the Marketing department. The only way to know the real MV is to have a chronograph device on hand. They vary in price but compared to the price of ammo the cheapest are cheap.

No, you don't need a laser range finder if you already know the ranges. Regardless, there are other ways to judge distance. If you can go forward to the targets you can pace, or use the odometer in your car, or a GPS. If not, then judge by using known object sizes and the scope's reticle, or halving, or imagine how many 100yds go into the total, or ask the shooters next to you and average.

[VASCAR2]

From a practical application I’ve experienced in the midwest. Starting at shorter distance and working my way out was a lot easier than first attempting to make hits at 800 yards or further. At shorter distances I could get a better feel for environmental conditions that day. When I was shooting in Wy at 7200’ ASL was completely different than shooting at 450’ ASL in the midwest. At long range in the midwest it is almost impossible to see your misses where I shoot. You have to be spot on with your dope to get on target within a few shots.

I have a Friend who has been shooting long range quite a few years. I’ve seen him pull his rifle use his Laser to get the distance to target then use his Kestrel and phone app. He then proceeds to shoot at approximately 1000 yards and make a hit on his first or second shot. Granted he is shooting a precision 6.5-284 with a very high quality scope. He knows his equipment and he shoots a lot in the area but has traveled and assisted in teaching firearms classes.

I’m a hobbyist who likes to play. Really depends on your end goal.

[LR1955]

Im fairly new to precision shooting. I mean, I did qualify for "Rifle Expert" with BUIS back in the days of my youth in the USMC, but I'm brand new to shooting with a high-power optic. I'm trying to learn all the ins-and-outs of plinking targets at long range, but I'm finding it a bit overwhelming (atmospheric conditions, "Coriolis effect", gyroscopic spin, multiple wind values, updrafts, downdrafts, etc, etc). I mean, I understand the terminology, but exactly how to apply it all is challenging to say the least. I want to give myself (and my aging eyes) every advantage possible, so I will invest in whatever equipment I need to do this proper.

I purchased a ballistic app, but while perusing it today I noticed it requires a lot of input I would not be able provide (or would have to guesstimate). Wondering how many target shooters here use a Weather Meter in addition to their ballistic app. I saw a few different models of the "Kestrel" brand, but not sure which one would be best for my application. For instance, is the rotating vane accessory helpful?

Next, is the muzzle velocity listed on the ammo box sufficient, or is having a chronograph the only way to truly get accurate data on your ammo?

One last question... if you're shooting at a range that already has the targets measured out, is a laser range finder necessary?

Any advice greatly appreciated

FM:

Be very sure the optic is mounted as perfectly as possible on the rifle since you will be using hold overs to a great extent.

Know the true zeros of your ammo by shooting for group numerous times at known distances from 100 to about 800 yards. Absolute must if you are to shoot targets at unknown distances.

Have a very good idea of the danger space of your ammo so you can decide if a hold has a good chance or if you need to dial in the exact elevation.

Know how to dope winds and how to use the various techniques that competitors use when they face winds. If the wind appears to be constant from one direction, I put a specific amount of wind on the optic and use holds from that setting. If the wind is variable, I go with a no wind zero and use holds. Most likely the PSC guys have other techniques that are worth while learning.

If you already know the distances to the targets, you do not need to estimate the range. What you do need is a very good understanding of the zeros of your rifle with your ammo or those distances will not do you any good.

Your biggest issue will be getting into positions that provide you enough stability to shoot well and quickly, your ability to accurately figure out and use a hold, your ability to dope winds, your ability to very precisely call your shots, and your optics ability to allow you to see some sort of splash. Focus on what has meaning and ignore the rest.

There is no need for you to worry about almost all the stuff the ballistics programs are asking for. About the only thing you ought to know in terms of this type of minutia is zero changes due to your elevation above sea level (if you are going from sea level past about 2500 feet ASL, and zero changes due to temperature. You will find that most of this MET data has meaning only in some relatively extreme environmental conditions and only at distances past about 500 yards. At least in terms of the target sizes you will be shooting.

You will know when it is time to deal with the other stuff and once you are good enough to know for certain if any of it makes a difference, you will realized that the difference is so small that it isn't worth spending the time estimating.

LR55

[Flight Medic]

I dont know how to "dope winds". All I know how to do is correct using my missed shots. Sometimes I use Kentucky Windage, sometimes I adjust my turrent. But unfortunately the range I use has wild grass on the berms behind the targets past 300 yards, and I cant see my misses without a dust signature.. I havent sighted the Grendel scope in yet, but I took my Armalite .308 out and I couldnt get it past 600 yards. At 500 yards I was consistently hitting target, but 600 yards I dropped to about 1 hit for every 6 attempts. It was a very windy day, and we were dealing with gusts (Im giessing) were around 40 mph. I ran put of ammo trying to get past 600 yards.

I thought maybe a weather station in conjuction with a ballistic calculator would help me find the target since I couldnt use my missed shots to correct.

[StoneHendge]

I would invest in training before you invest in equipment. If you do one of the JP courses, they'll even provide a loaner rifle. I can't say enough good things about the program and the lead instructor Brian. You would come out of PR1 knowing exactly what you need and avoid costly mistakes. http://bluesteelranch.us

[Klem]

If you hit a target 1 in 6 shots your dope is close and may even be perfect. You've 'found' the target.

Either the target is too small for the shooting system or there is something wrong with the system (or both). The system includes you, the potential of the gun, the capability of the ammunition, the stability of the rest, and what the weather is doing at the time of the shot between you and the target. The system includes you so it may be that you need more practise...We all need more practise.

Be careful of 'chasing the spotter' when the system is producing large groups. Correcting subsequent shots based on where the previous shot went relative to the point-of-aim can send you off the target pretty quickly if you don't appreciate the concept of a group.

It is unusual that with a 308 you can hit at 500 but have sketchy results at 600, unless the target is smaller than your ability to shoot at that range, or something in the system has changed (e.g. the wind was less predictable). Are you using the same size target at these ranges? How big is it?

[Flight Medic]

If you hit a target 1 in 6 shots your dope is close and may even be perfect.

It is unusual that with a 308 you can hit at 500 but have sketchy results at 600, unless the target is smaller than your ability to shoot at that range, or something in the system has changed (e.g. the wind was less predictable). Are you using the same size target at these ranges? How big is it?

Yeah, it was weird. I could ping the 500 target like three times in a row (granted, it was swinging so I was hitting outer edges), but at 600 I got lost. On a box of 20 rounds I only found the target 3 times. Rifle was an Armalite AR-31 .308 with a Nightforce NXS 4.5-22x56 shooting Sako Super Hammerhead 150gr.

I made the turret changes (per the ballistic app) like I had for 300, 400 and 500, all with good success, but 600 was ellusive for some reason. I have no doubt I'm the weakest link in the "system", my 55-year-old eyes arent what they used to be. Although, in my defense, the wind was whipping pretty good that day...I remember wishing I had brought a jacket with me.

All the targets, I believe, were 4 MOA-size, AR500 steel. The range where I shoot ( Triple C in Cresson, TX) have multiple lanes which have targets ranging from 6-8 MOA down to 2 MOA size, and there?s a target every 100 yards on every lane.

Im going back on Monday to sight-in the Grendel and see how far I can take it out. Will post results afterward.

[Flight Medic]

It is unusual that with a 308 you can hit at 500 but have sketchy results at 600, unless the target is smaller than your ability to shoot at that range, or something in the system has changed (e.g. the wind was less predictable). Are you using the same size target at these ranges? How big is it?

Yeah, it was weird. I could ping the 500 target like three times in a row (granted, it was swinging so I was hitting outer edges), but at 600 I got lost. On a box of 20 rounds I only found the target 3 times ( I thought I only hit twice but my spotter said that I did it a 3rd time. I didn't see it, though). Rifle was an Armalite AR-31 .308 with a Nightforce NXS 4.5-22x56 shooting Sako Super Hammerhead 150gr.

I made the turret changes (per the ballistic app) like I had for 300, 400 and 500, all with good success, but 600 was ellusive for some reason. I have no doubt I'm the weakest link in the "system", my 55-year-old eyes arent what they used to be. Although, in my defense, the wind was whipping pretty good that day...I remember wishing I had brought a jacket with me.

All the targets, I believe, were 4 MOA-size, AR500 steel. The range where I shoot ( Triple C in Cresson, TX) have multiple lanes which have targets ranging from 6-8 MOA down to 2 MOA size, and there?s a target every 100 yards on every lane.

Im going back on Monday to sight-in the Grendel and see how far I can take it out. Will post results afterward.

[Flight Medic]

It is unusual that with a 308 you can hit at 500 but have sketchy results at 600, unless the target is smaller than your ability to shoot at that range, or something in the system has changed (e.g. the wind was less predictable). Are you using the same size target at these ranges? How big is it?

Yeah, it was weird. I could ping the 500 target like three times in a row (granted, it was swinging so I was hitting outer edges), but at 600 I got lost. On a box of 20 rounds I only found the target 3 times ( I thought I only hit twice but my spotter said that I did it a 3rd time. I didn't see it, though). Rifle was an Armalite AR-31 .308 with a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 shooting Sako Super Hammerhead 150gr.

I made the turret changes (per the ballistic app) like I had for 300, 400 and 500, all with good success, but 600 was ellusive for some reason. I have no doubt I'm the weakest link in the "system", my 55-year-old eyes arent what they used to be. Although, in my defense, the wind was whipping pretty good that day...I remember wishing I had brought a jacket with me.

All the targets, I believe, were 4 MOA-size, AR500 steel. The range where I shoot ( Triple C in Cresson, TX) have multiple lanes which have targets ranging from 6-8 MOA down to 2 MOA size, and there?s a target every 100 yards on every lane.

Im going back on Monday to sight-in the Grendel and see how far I can take it out. Will post results afterward.

[Shooterrex]

150 grain is a little light for 600 yds. Nikon spot on shows sighted in at 200 yds that round drops about 40in at 500 yds and about another 40 inches to 600 yds.

[LR1955]

Yeah, it was weird. I could ping the 500 target like three times in a row (granted, it was swinging so I was hitting outer edges), but at 600 I got lost. On a box of 20 rounds I only found the target 3 times ( I thought I only hit twice but my spotter said that I did it a 3rd time. I didn't see it, though). Rifle was an Armalite AR-31 .308 with a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 shooting Sako Super Hammerhead 150gr.

I made the turret changes (per the ballistic app) like I had for 300, 400 and 500, all with good success, but 600 was ellusive for some reason. I have no doubt I'm the weakest link in the "system", my 55-year-old eyes arent what they used to be. Although, in my defense, the wind was whipping pretty good that day...I remember wishing I had brought a jacket with me.

All the targets, I believe, were 4 MOA-size, AR500 steel. The range where I shoot ( Triple C in Cresson, TX) have multiple lanes which have targets ranging from 6-8 MOA down to 2 MOA size, and there?s a target every 100 yards on every lane.

Im going back on Monday to sight-in the Grendel and see how far I can take it out. Will post results afterward.

FM:

Funny you would observe the difference between 500 and 600 shooting the .308. During the era when the .308 was king in High Power, it was kind of a saying that the difference between 500 and 600 was a couple of X's and points. That's why the .308 died out in High Power and guys went to the 6.5mm cartridges like the 6.5 / 08, .260, and eventually the 6.5 Creedmoor. Significantly better exterior ballistics with about 1/3 the recoil. Combine them and you have a round that is better in the wind and is not as abusive to shoot which equates to better performance at longer distances. The PRC guys soon abandoned the .308 for the same reasons and went to their 6.5 PRC cartridge.

If the winds are calm, the Grendel should do real well to 500 yards but it will lose its edge real fast past 500 due to its low velocity. Most likely vertical stringing and even the slightest wind will cause problems.

LR55

[rabiddawg]

If the winds are calm, the Grendel should do real well to 500 yards but it will lose its edge real fast past 500 due to its low velocity. Most likely vertical stringing and even the slightest wind will cause problems.

LR55

That’s exactly what I have found with my Grendel’s

[Flight Medic]

<snip>

If the winds are calm, the Grendel should do real well to 500 yards but it will lose its edge real fast past 500 due to its low velocity. Most likely vertical stringing and even the slightest wind will cause problems.

LR55

Well damn, that's disheartening. I chose Grendel over 224 Valkyrie for my platform because I was told (with a 24" barrel) it will do 1000 yards all day long with nary a whimper, and packs more punch than the Valkyrie. Long distance (non-competition) PRS was the whole purpose for this build...well, that and the sense of accomplishment that came with building my own rifle from scratch. But 5.56 will do 500 yards, and I already had a few of those. Guess I should have ask which one will ACCURATELY hit 1000 yards.

[plt228]

I like a Grendel over a Valkyrie because mine is more for hunting than comps. The Valkyrie has better numbers for hitting steel and paper but I don?t think there Grendel is that much worse. I only shoot factory loads, so I really want to try some of the Defender 107 TMKs. Those should shrink the difference between the GR and the Valk.

Frank(Snipershide owner) has a couple of Valkyries that I think he said he got pushed by the winds after 600 yards. Along with the suggestions listed already, I would suggest listing to the Everyday Sniper Podcast(the snipershide podcast). They cover everything from equipment and setup to ballistic and training.

[Flight Medic]

<snip>

Along with the suggestions listed already, I would suggest listing to the Everyday Sniper Podcast(the snipershide podcast). They cover everything from equipment and setup to ballistic and training.

Thanks for the suggestion, mate. I'll definitely check it out.

[LR1955]

Well damn, that's disheartening. I chose Grendel over 224 Valkyrie for my platform because I was told (with a 24" barrel) it will do 1000 yards all day long with nary a whimper, and packs more punch than the Valkyrie. Long distance (non-competition) PRS was the whole purpose for this build...well, that and the sense of accomplishment that came with building my own rifle from scratch. But 5.56 will do 500 yards, and I already had a few of those. Guess I should have ask which one will ACCURATELY hit 1000 yards.

FM:

I thought you were comparing it to your .308 for PRS. I do not own a Valkyrie but I imagine the Valkyrie would have an edge in exterior ballistics and recoil. I don't think either are decent long range cartridges.

Given non competition long range shooting, the only edge the Grendel will have over the Valkyrie would be that you can see splash easier and have a much better chance of hearing the bullet hit a gong. Those are very good things so you are probably better off with the Grendel.

If it were competition in an organized sport, then neither would be a good choice.

LR55

[Flight Medic]

FM:

I thought you were comparing it to your .308 for PRS.
<snip>

Well, I guess I was since its the only other the .308 is a bolt gun that I bought on a whim because I thought it looked cool. LOL
I never seriously considered PRS before, this rifle started off as just a hobby project with no dedicated purpose. I had the upper and lower sitting in their boxes for quite a while, not sure what form the AR was going to take, but the original idea was to do another 5.56 "on the cheap" just to have the experience. After vascillating back and fourth between SBR, carbine or A1 my FFL-guy suggested I make an AR-10 long-range plinker. I didnt want to have to buy a new AR-10 lower to accomodate either Creedmoor or .308, the whole point was to use what I already had, so he suggested Grendel. When I asked if thst would be an effective cartridge for long-range shooting he said "absolutely".

I came here for advice on the Grendel cartridge and quickly discovered the barrel will be the most important part for an accurate AR. After dropping $500 on a precision barrel I decided not to scrimp on the rest of the parts, and my "on the cheap" project turned into a $4000 build (granted, half of that was the optic which can always be used on another rifle). But I am disappointed about getting bad advice regarding the effective range of Grendel. If I had known it was not going to consistently get me out to 1000 yards (as I was told), I most likely would have gone with a cheaper optic.

Oh well, it is what it is. Still should be a fun shooter, whatever its limitations.

[Flight Medic]

FM:

I thought you were comparing it to your .308 for PRS.
<snip>

The AR-31 (.308) was never meant for PRS. In fact, I didn't even know what "PRS" was at that time, I bought it on a whim because I thought it would be cool to have a "sniper" rifle for the Zombie-pocalypse. LOL

This AR started off as just a hobby project with no dedicated purpose. I had the upper and lower sitting in their factory boxes for quite a while, not sure what form the rifle was going to take. The original idea was to do another 5.56 "on the cheap" simply to have the build experience. After vacillating back and fourth between SBR, carbine or a retro-style A1 platforms a friend suggested I make a long-range target AR. Since the only "long-range" rifle I had was a bolt gun I thought a PRS AR would be a great addition to the stable and avoid redundancy with my other ARs. I had heard that Creedmoor was the darling caliber for PRS, but since I didn't want to have to buy a new lower to accommodate the larger cartridge (the whole point was to use what I already had) I asked for suggestions. Valkyrie and Grendel were consistently mentioned, and my FFL-guy said Grendel was the better choice. When I asked what kind of distances I could expect he told me that, with a 24" barrel, it would consistently be able to hit 1000 yards.

I came here for more advice on the Grendel cartridge and quickly discovered the quality of barrel will be the most important part in accuracy. After dropping $500 on a precision Lilja I decided not to scrimp on the rest of the parts for the rifle, and my "on the cheap" project turned into a $4000 build (granted, half of that was the optic...so actually only $2K). I really like how it turned out, but I am disappointed about getting bad advice regarding the effective range of Grendel. If I had known it was not going to consistently get me out to 1000 yards (as I was told), I most likely would have gone with a cheaper/smaller optic.

Oh well, it is what it is. Still should be a nice shooter...despite its limitations.