Midway Satern 6.5 Grendel barrels

[fanofflyn]

Mine Satern barrels are 9/16-24 threads at the muzzle.

[elkbow]

Mine Satern barrels are 9/16-24 threads at the muzzle.

thanks, what I need to know is the exact diameter of the barrel right before the threads, so I an have a muzzle brake made that tapers to that point...of course probably isn't going to matter much as the crush washer won't fit perfectly, but I have ways I can probably do it without the crush washer

[Cbubac]

The muzzle diameter is .795 on mine which arrived today. I am a little irritated as the box and barrel are marked .264 lbc, but the barcode sticker says 6.5 grendel as does midway usa website. I know their basically the same but this is a .264 marked not a 6.5 grendel. The tradmark has been released so why is this the case?

[leopard6.5]

Cbubac: Personally if it was me, I would contact( telephone and email, just so they also have it in writing) Midway USA and complain about it and let them know you want one that has the SAAMI spec. chamber instead.

On another thread someone called Satern and they said they weren't going to change until they get official notification that AA has released the trademark.

Midway USA, with their buying power, can put more pressure on these companies if they realize it will make a difference to their customers.
These barrels could have also been made before the trademark release but it never hurts to let them know how you feel and that you're not happy.

In the future, depending on how many barrel makers switch back to the SAAMI chamber and mark their barrels accordingly, these barrels may even become harder to sell as they are not marked 6.5 Grendel.
I know I wouldn't buy one unless it is marked 6.5 Grendel.

Just my thoughts.

Good Luck.

Lee

[Wood]

On Midways website it does say 6.5 Grendel, but in their catalog it says .264 lbc. I prefer the 6.5 over the 264 for the basic reason if I decide to sell the gun years down the road 6.5 Grendel is a standard. you can always get a refund on the barrel but then you will not have one at all.

You can buy an barrel that has not been chambered and have someone chamber it for 6.5 Grendel. This is what I am doing my barrel should be here this week then it will get chambered. Its not the cheapest way but I get the barrel I want.

[vfrdrvr]

I've been wondering where Midway was coming off claiming they stocked Satern 6.5 G barrels when Satern wasn't/isn't currently making them. Personally, I have a .264 lbc and like it. I like having a choice between 6.5g and .264 and SAMMI or no, I'd probably go .264 again. I just wish Midway would get their collective feces aggregated as to what exactly it is they're selling. If you do stick with the barrel you have just make sure you have (or get) a bolt to match.

[Cbubac]

Heres what I got after they contacted satern
Dear Mr. Bubac:
*
Concerning product number:** 917940, Satern Match Barrel with Bolt AR-15 264 LBC-AR Medium Weight 1 in 8.75" Twist 24" Stainless Steel Pre-Ban.* The .264 LCB and 6.5 Grendel chambers are the same.* The .264 barrel was made before Alexander arms released the trademark on the 6.5 Grendel name, which happed recently.*
*
If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. CT; Saturday and Sunday 9 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. CT. You may also email us at customerservice@midwayusa.com.*
*
Thanks for your* Business,
*
Teresa S.
Customer Service, MidwayUSA


I'm okay with this barrel but I would have like to known in advance. I will say midway was quick to get back to me. Here's some gun "adult action" of my project so far

[Cbubac]

By the way midway already changed their item description
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/917940/...el-pre-ban

[leopard6.5]

Cbubac: This is part of the problem I have with the people making various chambers and calling them the Grendel. These are not the same because the measurements are different.

The Grendel chamber uses a .300 neck and the LBC uses a .295 neck.
I know it may not be enough to make a difference when shooting but they are not the same.
It also changes the shoulder, angle even if minutely, because of the different neck measurement.

People like Midway USA should know better, and they probably did, because they've been in the business long enough.
They probably thought, and rightly so, that they would sell them quicker labeling them as Grendels.
I just think it's not a very honest way of selling things( or should I sell someone a chevy and say " Hey it's really just like a Ferrari.").

At least they replied to you quickly and have since changed their listing.

Good Luck with your shooting.

Lee

[Cbubac]

Cbubac: This is part of the problem I have with the people making various chambers and calling them the Grendel. These are not the same because the measurements are different.

The Grendel chamber uses a .300 neck and the LBC uses a .295 neck.
I know it may not be enough to make a difference when shooting but they are not the same.
It also changes the shoulder, angle even if minutely, because of the different neck measurement.

People like Midway USA should know better, and they probably did, because they've been in the business long enough.
They probably thought, and rightly so, that they would sell them quicker labeling them as Grendels.
I just think it's not a very honest way of selling things( or should I sell someone a chevy and say " Hey it's really just like a Ferrari.").

At least they replied to you quickly and have since changed their listing.

Good Luck with your shooting.

Lee

I couldn't agree more, when I was researching my newest build I chose the 6.5 Grendel due to its ballistics in a ar15 platform. I was looking at the 264 but chose the Grendel due to popularity, and available factory loads. I came very close to doing a 700 action in a 308 like everyone else but I already have all the ar tools. Plus I'd have t pay to have the action trued and lapped. Though I still don't regret my decision, but it is a problem calling a 264 a grendel when midway said its the same. I guess I'll just have to order a hornady lock n load progressive press with the bullet rebate and load my own brass.

[vfrdrvr]

I couldn't agree more, when I was researching my newest build I chose the 6.5 Grendel due to its ballistics in a ar15 platform. I was looking at the 264 but chose the Grendel due to popularity, and available factory loads. I came very close to doing a 700 action in a 308 like everyone else but I already have all the ar tools. Plus I'd have t pay to have the action trued and lapped. Though I still don't regret my decision, but it is a problem calling a 264 a grendel when midway said its the same. I guess I'll just have to order a hornady lock n load progressive press with the bullet rebate and load my own brass.

The chamber differences between the .264 and the G are relatively minor. The headspacing issue isn't. What is EXACTLY the same are the loaded ammo dimensions (factory loads included). So, if you want to roll your own, cool. But it isn't a requirement. Oh, and the cartridge shoulder angles are the same (they use the same dies) as are the shoulder angles in the chambers. The neck on the G is several thousandths (more or less) larger and the throat treatments are different. All in all, they are more similar than 5.56 and .223.

[Drifter]

Oh, and the cartridge shoulder angles are the same (they use the same dies) as are the shoulder angles in the chambers.

Based on examination of fired brass from Grendel and LBC chambers, I don't think the shoulder angles of the chambers are the same.

[vfrdrvr]

Based on examination of fired brass from Grendel and LBC chambers, I don't think the shoulder angles of the chambers are the same.

The loaded cartridges are/should be identical. The only difference in fired brass I've seen is the necks from those fired in Grendel chambers run about .298 - .299 and brass from my LBC about .294. If there's a difference in the shoulder I don't see it. I haven't seen a reamer/chamber print for a G. I have one from PTG for the LBC. Shoulder angle is 30, which is what I recall seeing for the Grendel. Neck diameter is .295. Perhaps Bill A will post a print for the G.

I guess it's possible what you're seeing is the neck on Grendel fired brass being blown out farther than the LBC. If so, you have micrometer calibrated eyes.

The real issue, for me at least, is the bolt depth/headspacing difference. The other stuff is pretty inconsequential.

[leopard6.5]

vfrdrvr: Here's what Bill A. posted in another thread:

There have been a number of variations on chamber supposed to "improve" the Grendel. Most notable is the LBC which is particularly amusing as it was a design tested in prototyping and then dumped, that the reamer maker just regurgitated. The typical improvement may prove fruitful for the individual but it may also create frustration. Loading data may or may not be applicable. The Grendel chamber proper was set up to allow it to be easy to achieve good accuracy in bulk production with only a little attention to the details. It is tolerant to both long ogive target bullets, short flat base varmint loads and long but blunter hunting loadings. The typical set up with a half decent barrel will usually outshoot its owner.

As to case life this seems to be another internet rumor. Unless the shooter uses an appropriate bushing type die set, 0.005" on diameter or 0.003" will have no effect at all. The sizing die will move the brass way beyond this both below and then back up as the sizing button passes. What the "tight" neck does without adequate insight is to relocate the origin for the shoulder/neck radius to a possible bind condition as the various manufacturers produce differing batches.

The neck diameter has a negliable effect on brass life in this instance. I doubt you will be able to quantify it. Conversely the lack of singularity for the 0.295" neck has proven problematic.

The 0.295"/0.300" neck shift itself is negliable for either function or brass life, but it does shift the transition radius for the neck to shoulder junction inwards. This stacks against the matching radius on the brass and depending upon how the shift is made on the reamer print the two can collide. This is magnified if for example you have no clue about the brass dimensions and tolerances so the transition radius cannot be matched up correctly. A more insidious problem with the 0.295" neck rests not with diameter but neck length. In the rush to prove superiority individuals shortened the neck length as well as adjusting diameter with different brass falling to differing tolerances it was not unusual to see rounds headspaced on the case mouth. My general opinion of the 0.295" neck is that it is an uneccesary adjustment that has proven to be uncontrolled in many other aspects.

Anyone who is determined to shoot lacquered steel case in a tighter neck chamber is welcome to do so. It will generally fit but may or may not have the clearance to release the bullet. Let me know how this works out for you and remember when your rifle errupts in a clouds of broken parts you have no recourse except getting laughed at. I would advise that the steel case is tested and designed for the Grendel chamber and my initial observation is that the 0.300" throat is well suited to this form of construction.

As stated by Bill A. there is a difference and I don't understand why people keep trying to defend other chambers by saying they are the same.
They are not the same.

Whether the differences are consequential or not has never been the question but when a buyer, especially a new to the Grendel buyer wants a Grendel, calling other things a Grendel isn't ethical.
Some of these buyers may be very inexperienced shooter who end up having problems, like when the Hornady ammo came out, and don't know why.
They can get frustrated or worse injured and end up blaming the Grendel and Bill A. when the blame rests elsewhere.
I think it's especially hurtful and dishonest when a buyer( see Cbubac's posts above) thinks they are getting the SAAMI spec. chamber and they end up with something else.

They should just be truthful and say they are trying to benefit from someone elses work and be honest with their customers.

I'm glad that all this stuff other than the headspacing( and this is a pretty consequential issue especially for buyers that don't reload) is inconsequential to you but you aren't the only buyer and it is important to others and they have the right to get honest information.
The headspacing issue has been causing problems for people who post here and on the older forum for years and it never should have been an issue for anyone if the Grendel chamber had been used or if the variations had been fully explained so people would know what they are getting instead of being told it is the same( as in identical which it isn't).


All this being said, Good luck with your shooting and it's good to have you here.

Lee

[LRRPF52]

I wonder how many years it will take to work these kinks out, and if most of these other shops will just start making Grendel chambers with Grendel bolts to the standard SAAMI spec, or continue to deviate.

The fact that several barrel shops are using some other chamber has been stopping me from ordering from them. I don't want a bolt that has the wrong depth for the Grendel extractor rim dimensions, and I don't want a .295" or .297" or .292" neck. I just want the SAAMI chamber that I can expect industry support from, with known loads. I learned recently how important start pressure is with solids, and if you change the neck tightness, and throat angle from a known chamber, that is going to have effects on start pressure bigtime.

Since we're mostly dealing with AR's, you can't just have your barrel short-chambered by someone with a true Grendel reamer to correct the problem, because your gas port is already drilled. People need to get on the SAAMI chamber already.

[vfrdrvr]

vfrdrvr: Here's what Bill A. posted in another thread:

As stated by Bill A. there is a difference and I don't understand why people keep trying to defend other chambers by saying they are the same.
They are not the same.

Thanks Lee. I've seen most to all of this before, but it's good to refresh. To be honest, I've been wanting to enter the Grendel since the early days of the old web site. The reason I didn't was the amount of drama surrounding the availability/proprietary nature of the design in years past.

I never said they're the same. Obviously, they're not. What I said was, the differences as I understand them (having never seen a reamer print for the Grendel) are .004 to .005 in the neck, and a 1.5 degree as opposed to compound throat. A previous poster was concerned he'd have to start reloading because he had an lbc chamber and, I guess, thought he couldn't shoot Grendel dimensioned ammo. That's just not true. The dies are the same. The ammo dimensions are the same. To be sure, if ammo makers get sloppy or you use cheap laquered steel case stuff you may have problems, but that's true of some 5.56/.223 chambers as well.

Whether the differences are consequential or not has never been the question but when a buyer, especially a new to the Grendel buyer wants a Grendel, calling other things a Grendel isn't ethical.

No argument here. I can't for the life of me understand why Midway called them Grendels. However, I don't think it's a bait and switch.

Some of these buyers may be very inexperienced shooter who end up having problems, like when the Hornady ammo came out, and don't know why.

They can get frustrated or worse injured and end up blaming the Grendel and Bill A. when the blame rests elsewhere.
I think it's especially hurtful and dishonest when a buyer( see Cbubac's posts above) thinks they are getting the SAAMI spec. chamber and they end up with something else.

Until a few weeks ago there was no SAMMI spec chamber. I don't know what the source of the disagreements between AA and Satern, Baer and others were. Frankly, I'm not persuaded by the "purity of the design" argument. I've been around shooting for a while and I don't recall that much drama in a long time. I wish things had gone differently, my first 6.5 AR would have been a 'true' Grendel. They didn't and it wasn't.

They should just be truthful and say they are trying to benefit from someone elses work and be honest with their customers.

I can't help but think this is the major part of the problem. AA wanted to capitalize on their work. They are certainly entitled to do so. What ensued, though, turned a lot of folks off - myself among them.

I'm glad that all this stuff other than the headspacing( and this is a pretty consequential issue especially for buyers that don't reload) is inconsequential to you but you aren't the only buyer and it is important to others and they have the right to get honest information.

Why is headspacing an issue especially for those who don't reload? If I have it right if HS is tight a spec round won't chamber and if it's too loose you're asking for a head separation. The first is a pain, the latter is, well, really bad.

The headspacing issue has been causing problems for people who post here and on the older forum for years and it never should have been an issue for anyone if the Grendel chamber had been used or if the variations had been fully explained so people would know what they are getting instead of being told it is the same( as in identical which it isn't).

Again, no argument here. The lbc, the 6.5 sporter, and the new ARP offering are not, in the absolute sense, Grendels. By the same token, they seem to be closer kin than the 5.56 nato and .223, and that's pretty close. The difference in the 5.56 and .223 has proven manageable. I suspect this will, too.

I knew going in I was getting a variation on the design and it was a variation I wanted. The bolt/headspacing stuff was a bit of a curveball, but one that's managable. I'm still working up loads for mine, but it'll put 5 rounds of 123 A-max into about .5" at 100 and do almost that well with 108 Scenars (I think it will do better with the Scenars if I spring for a better seating die - my hdy die doesn't want to seat them to consistent lengths). So all-in-all, I'm a happy camper.

All this being said, Good luck with your shooting and it's good to have you here.

Lee

And, again, thanks,

Jim

[leopard6.5]

Hey Jim: It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page and to be honest it's not shooters like you I'm worried about, It's the new shooters that may not be experienced enough to make an informed choice.

When Hornady came out with their ammo, there were all kinds of reported problems from people who did not have the Grendel chamber and not one that I read that was the Grendel chamber.
This was just the first batch of ammo released by Hornady and something was changed by Hornady on further batches to make the ammo work for everyone.
But I still wonder how many people had this problem and said that the Grendel doesn't shoot well and left the Grendel Horde.
These are the people you never hear about and they just disappear from the group.

Also, with the new Wolf ammo coming out being laquer coated, how many of these people with the tighter neck are going to have problems and get made at the Grendel.
Hopefully no one will have a problem but like people like Cbubac, they won't know until it's too late.

As LRRPF52 says hopefully this all gets straightened out sooner than later and we'll all be happy and safe.

Like you, I also read the going back and forth between people for years on the old forum but with it being crashed, the new people looking for info, can't go to those posts and get educated before they make a decision.

Thanks again for your input and if nothing else it gets alot of this on the forum again so new buyers can educate themselves.
I'm such a slow typer that I wish I could have been able to just copy and paste from the old forum.
I think this should be a great help to keep everyone informed.

Good Shooting!

Lee

[vfrdrvr]

Thanks Lee,

Take care.

Jim

[LightningII]

I wonder how many years it will take to work these kinks out, and if most of these other shops will just start making Grendel chambers with Grendel bolts to the standard SAAMI spec, or continue to deviate.

The fact that several barrel shops are using some other chamber has been stopping me from ordering from them. I don't want a bolt that has the wrong depth for the Grendel extractor rim dimensions, and I don't want a .295" or .297" or .292" neck. I just want the SAAMI chamber that I can expect industry support from, with known loads. I learned recently how important start pressure is with solids, and if you change the neck tightness, and throat angle from a known chamber, that is going to have effects on start pressure bigtime.

Since we're mostly dealing with AR's, you can't just have your barrel short-chambered by someone with a true Grendel reamer to correct the problem, because your gas port is already drilled. People need to get on the SAAMI chamber already.

It will take as long as necesary for problems to be identified, studied, and fixed through redesign. The bigger the sample ( more shooters) the more quickly this cycle will mature. But as long as there aren't any real problems, we'll all just sit here and "what if" it to death. Hopefully, as someone else has mentioned, this will be a .223 vs. 5.56 kind of deal, where it won't ever become a significant problem.

[LRRPF52]

The things that turned people off were the continuous stream of lies about Bill A. and the Grendel. Notice how there were no such lies about the Ghengis and Beowulf? What does that tell you?

The lies about licensing fees,
Bill A. being some kind evil capitalist "...who didn't want ANYBODY else making Grendel barrels so he could control the whole market."
"The Grendel is only good for punching paper."
"The Grendel is only capable of decent velocities if you have a 24" barrel."

It's all BS, and shooters have learned that there is a campaign that is still very much alive to sideline the Grendel for some reason. I mean, how much of a threat can this little cartridge be for people to have to resort to endless lies about it?

That is the real turn-off, and it isn't with Bill A. or the Grendel, it is with those who need to resort to lying for whatever reason. I actually used to wonder if there was credibility in these claims, since I was hearing them from so many places. Turns out they were ALL BS. Go figure...