I have a question ?

[montana]

On the AR15 Performance thread it got a little side tracked by people like me and I apologize for it. But my question is why all the barrel makers seem to be making slightly different bolts and and altered chambers. I understand trying to improve performance but I haven't seen any problems with the original. Why not offer the Grendel chamber with there so called new and improved chambers and bolts and let the buyers decide.I'm not trying to start another argument so let's not go there, but I think this is something that should be answered. I would think this would stop a lot of confusion when purchasing rifles for this caliber, and sell more rifles.

[stokesrj]

Hi Montana,
I think you would have to understand the history of the 6.5 Grendel to really appreciate the vastly different views and the angling that went on to answer your question. Bill A. chose a .300 neck and a compound throat lead angle that he felt was optimum for his major objectives. Others chose to tighten things up to a 2.95 neck and tried to market this as superior, they also tried to denigrate the compound throat angle. I see these as mostly issues as driven by jealousy rather than true technical superiority.
I have both .295 and .300 neck chambers and compound throat angle and 1 and .5 degree lead angles. They all work and they all have benefits and drawbacks. Bill attempted a proprietary approach similar to what Weatherby did but in the end, gave that approach up and went to an open standard. Bill has done more for the Grendel than any other person, but his approaches were not always appreciated by all and downright viciously attacked by some. Then you have Johnny come lately types that try to cash in but have no clue what they are doing. You've seen some of that too.
The Grendel is now a SAAMI standard chamber which is a good thing and if you are going to label your product a 6.5 Grendel then it should be a 6.5 Grendel, not something else.
I think that now with the standardization, what you are seeing is the death throws of the my dimension is better types. They will fade away.
What you are seeing as new and improved have been with us from the beginning. They are new and improved only to those who haven't been through it all.
I hope that helps you understand a little more.
Bob

[leopard6.5]

montana: Prior to AA releasing the Grendel trademark, these other companies that did not want to honor AA's licensing agreement, chose to go around it by creating other specs.in their chambers.

There has never been any difinitive proof that any of these supposed improved chambers increased performance or accuracy.
In fact, when Hornady first came out with their Grendel ammo, the people that seemed to have problems with it all seemed to have a different chamber than the trademarked chamber.

Now that AA has released their trademark and Hornady has had the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI'd, hopefully more people will decide to go back to the SAAMI'd chamber and things will settle down for the benefit of the consumer.
This may take several months into years but hopefully it will change over time. We'll see.

I don't want to start another arguement either, but when I was reading the ar15 performance thread, some questions were asked about claims made in that thread( like how specifically is the 7.62 super bolt better than any other bolt out there, that the other chambers are still a Grendel chamber, etc.) that would not or could not be answered.
I think it's fair to ask someone for facts when a claim gets made so everyone benifits from the info.
It does bother me when someone comes on the forum who is brand new and within 2 or 3 posts has alienated some of the other members because they won't answer simple questions or provide info they should be aware of before making claims.

I am far more of a reader here than a poster but through the years on the forums( both this one and the old forum that went down from being hacked) there have been several people whose only goal was to cause ill feelings about the Grendel.
I've been in the Grendel game since approx. 2005 and have seen alot of this going on and for the most part, on the new forum, it has been eliminated or at least very limited.
Hopefully it stays that way since there are some very knowledgeable people here and they don't mind trying to help other shooters.

Keep those questions coming and hopefully this helps explain a little.

Lee

[leopard6.5]

OK Bob so you can type a lot faster than I can( of course most people can!).

Thanks for jumping in here again with your knowledge.

Lee

[cjgemm]

Guess I'm kind of responsible for the derail, Just can't quite wrap my head around the bullet choices he put up on his website for everyone to see.

[montana]

Thank you stokers j , leopard 6.5 and cjgmm , this does explain a lot. I think it would be more beneficial both financially and to our interest to give credit where credit is due and help support this caliber rather than trying to subvert it. I see nothing wrong in trying to improve things but not by cutting ones nose off to spite the face. I would be much more willing to try new barrel makers brands and products if they would stick to the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI specks. Thanks again for your help and information. This has cleared up a lot of my confusion on this subject.

[noone]

People like to toy with cartridges, throat dimensions, and so on. Just look at the 5.56/223 and the Wylde chamber/throat. It is the same thing with the Grendel/264 LBC/6.5 CSS. Different gunsmiths have an opinion about what works best, is most accurate, has the longest lasting throat, has better accuracy with a larger range of projectiles and so on.

The only way to truly find out which chamber does what, would be to buy a number of barrels that are as similar as possible, then have them all tested in a scientific manner. That would give us information about how the different chambers perform under these circumstances.

As far as I know, if this kind of testing has been done, no one has yet published the results.

[bwaites]

People like to toy with cartridges, throat dimensions, and so on. Just look at the 5.56/223 and the Wylde chamber/throat. It is the same thing with the Grendel/264 LBC/6.5 CSS. Different gunsmiths have an opinion about what works best, is most accurate, has the longest lasting throat, has better accuracy with a larger range of projectiles and so on.

The only way to truly find out which chamber does what, would be to buy a number of barrels that are as similar as possible, then have them all tested in a scientific manner. That would give us information about how the different chambers perform under these circumstances.

As far as I know, if this kind of testing has been done, no one has yet published the results.

You would think that a cartridge like .308 or .223, where so many shoot them competitively would have seen this same thing, but it hasn't, at least that I can find.

Some of the best shooters in the world shoot tight neck chambers that required turning the necks, and others, who shoot just as well, swear that they shoot standard necks in standard chambers just fine!

The US F Class FTR team is partly composed of guys who shoot for Team Savage. They all shoot stock Savage FTR rifles, and they shoot them well enough to win the US Team title in FTR and be part of the World Champion FTR team! No special barrels, no special chambers. Just rifles from off the line. They might swap barrels from time to time, but they don't get special, big name barrels, just Savage barrels off the line.

I would think that if there was any advantage to be gained by those special chambering "tricks" that those guys would be doing them!

[sneaky one]

Ahhhh... some peace in the valley. Bill, we are all happy you have the moderators title here, thanks-keep up the great work.

[bwaites]

Thanks Sneaky! Not sure everyone agrees, but that's OK, too! Disagreement is the birthplace of Democracy!

[infidel470]

No disagreement on my part, all is good.
Can somebody enlighten me on the strength and deficiencies of the 9130, 158 carpenter (ANSI P6) steel. I`m really curious about it.