AR15performance...

[cjgemm]

I'm sure he makes great products, but things like this:

"IMO bullets in the 100gr range work better for hunting with a case of this size. The 100 Nosler, and 100 gr Barnes TTSX will reach apx 2775
from a 18" barrel using 27.5-28.2 gr of 10 x. Work this load up slowly. The 100gr Lapua is a very good target bullet in the same range."

Makes me think he should stick to 6.8 products.

[elkbow]

I'm sure he makes great products, but things like this:

"IMO bullets in the 100gr range work better for hunting with a case of this size. The 100 Nosler, and 100 gr Barnes TTSX will reach apx 2775
from a 18" barrel using 27.5-28.2 gr of 10 x. Work this load up slowly. The 100gr Lapua is a very good target bullet in the same range."

Makes me think he should stick to 6.8 products.

ah, but he has been testing for awhile, so he knows the numbers already, as for the opinion that the 100gr would work better for hunting, well.. like the 6.8, is a heavier bullet say around 120gr better than a 95gr Barnes TTSX? The 120gr SST performs well out of the 6.8, and so does the 95gr TTSX, even the 85gr, the TTSX getting the nod for trajectory, but of course we know that energy is another factor.

[cjgemm]

In this case speed doesn't kill. 6.5mm bullets are not 6.8 bullets and don't need to be treated as such. As a matter of fact I ran a 110 6.8 and a 120 6.5 through loadbase and found that even though the 6.5 was about 200fps slower it still was right there with the 6.8 (actually ahead of it).

[elkbow]

i was only using the 6.8 as a reference on performance, the 6.5 Grendel or variants is a better performer no doubt, but in hunting situations alot comes in to play, specs on the bullet such as BC, weight, etc....i.e. bullet design, that coupled with barrel length, twist rate, etc. yields trajectory and energy that is affected by bullet performance...I think alot comes down to what game you are hunting at what distance with what bullet

[BluntForceTrauma]

Hunting situations? Shot placement trumps all. Assuming adequate penetration and sufficient bullet mass to permanently disrupt a vital structure once it's hit, very minor differences in grain weight and frontal area are moot. (And, yes, the differences between 110gr and 120gr and 6.8 and 6.5 are, indeed, insignificant relative to the body mass of a whitetail deer.)

John

[Bill Alexander]

Absolutely certain he should stick to 6.8. Bad bullet weight selection with and even worse powder. Re10x is a menace in the Grendel as many can attest to. If I wanted to shoot a fast light for caliber bullet with low sectional density and marginally acceptable Bc and then limit the whole thing by using a large base case this would be an ideal direction. Or I could buy a 5.56 and actually be better off.

Would be a perfect way to claim that the Grendel offers nothing over the 6.8 by picking out a less than optimum bullet weight. Hey, you could then rush about and say that the 6.5 has less viable hunting bullets. Put the resulting mess into an "improved" chamber that is neither particularly accurate or conducive to function and that precludes using steel case and there you go. You might even suggest that the pressures need jacking up to get better performance. When stuff starts to fail you can do a quick redesign, blame the original specs and then market the whole thing all over again.

[Bill Alexander]

I would add that Hornady when building a hunting load for the 6.8 went with a 120g SST. But then what would Hornady know about hunting.

Grendel 129 SST 0.485 Bc. Stomps the 6.8 load!

[stokesrj]

Hi John,

Well said, it isn't the caliber, weight of the bullet, bullet construction, velocity, muzzle energy, power factor, knock down index or any of the things conveniently calculatable that results in humane kills. All it takes is the removal of a vital organ to kill an animal and that takes very little energy. But it is absolutely required that the vital organ be hit to achieve the goal.

I've had a long and experienced hunting career spanning over 50 years on multiple continents and have taken big game with everything from longbows, recurve bows, compound bows, muzzle loaders, air rifles, rimfire rifles, shot guns and centerfire rifles of nearly all descriptions. I've faced charging dangerous game and I've followed wounded cape buffalo into tall grass so I understand the difference between killing and stopping an animal.

Bullet placement trumps all other considerations assuming the bullet has the required penetration to get the job done. Debating if a 100 grain or a 123 grain or a 140 grain bullet is required is largely academic and mostly debated by those with the least experience, although I do see highly experienced individuals get sucked into the mire from time to time.

I simply limit my range and circumstances so that I know with absolute certainty, I can destroy the vital organ I intend to destroy, given the accuracy, along with bullet mass and construction, I have at hand.

I remember posting a video on the old site of a Blessbuck I heart shot with a .22 hornet at 200 yards. It went down in 8 seconds, all recorded on the video. Many howled that this was unethical. I knew without a shadow of doubt what would happen when I pulled the trigger. That caliber meets none of the requirements of hunting big game, yet I have taken dozens big game animals with it and never failed to recover one.

The 6.5 Grendel is a wonderfully capable big game cartridge and when used within the shooters capabilities is capable of taking any big game animal in North America cleanly and humanely. However for the biggest of bears, I would choose a more capable caliber and fall back to my .375 H&H. I would not hesitate to use the 6.5 Grendel for black bears, elk, moose or even inland grizzlies. Again using it within my known capabilities to destroy the intended vital organs.

As to the 6.8 or 6.5 Grendel, under 300 yards, I don't care which is which. There are many more important things to consider with the hunt.

To your point, bullet placement trumps all, we would all be better served studying our intended game animals anatomy in detail than debating caliber nuances. For my first trip to Africa, I bought a couple of books specifically on shot placement. They depicted skelital construction and vital organ locations with overlays. These proved invaluable to me, especially since many African animals have their hearts positioned further forward, some are even forward of the front leg. It is a shame to me that we, in Notrh America pay relatively little attention to precicely where the vital organs are located in relation to other structures bone and muscle mass, so that we can more wisely choose our bullet placements.
Bob

[stokesrj]

Bill, I've hunted with Steve Hornady, he's a nice guy. He shot a .300 WSM on our hunt in British Columbia, it killed stuff just fine too, when he shot them in the right place.
Bob

[bwaites]

Bill, I've hunted with Steve Hornady, he's a nice guy. He shot a .300 WSM on our hunt in British Columbia, it killed stuff just fine too, when he shot them in the right place.
Bob

I think Bill's post was in the sarcastic mode, meaning, "What would Hornady know about hunting, after all, thats what they design bullets for!".

Sometimes his British English, and the American Idiom, don't quite mesh! I know he respects and likes Steve Hornady a great deal.

[elkbow]

wow, this had nothing to do with the 6.8, if I would have said my POF .308 shooting a Barnes 130gr TTSX would that have made a difference?

Bill A., here is your quote:

In this forum we do not slam anyone for a statement but do try to correct if there is an error or ask for more data if there is new information available.

but wow, are we a bit biased on this forum or what, way to much slamming going on here, not constructive criticism, but outright bias, I don't see other vendors or manufacturers doing that on many other forums, seems to be always the same ones, maybe its insecurity, inferiority complex, geez?? I don't know what it is, just never seen anything like it. I used to come read here when I got my first Grendels, as there are some good people on here like LRRPF52 and stokesrj, they weigh on a subject, whether opinion or fact and help out when they can, from what I read, those guys have alot of knowledge, experience and I value their opinion also. Heck Bill, if you don't remember you answered many of my questions years ago when I was learning about the Grendel, and I still think its a great cartridge, and I own two of your guns, but as with other cartridges, can always be improved or enhanced. Guess maybe I need to just come on here and read, and notice I didn't start this thread, I only gave my experience, thoughts and opinions and others have also that were shunned, almost like people are getting paid.

[bwaites]

elkbow,

Please explain why you feel there is bias? I work pretty hard to avoid that, and I try to keep everything as level as possible.

We ARE biased towards the Grendel, that is, after all, the name of the board. So far as the similar caliber chamberings, I'll admit we have some issues, mostly because they create significant confusion regarding what goes with what. (ie...can you us a Grendel barrel with a7.62 bolt? or a .264 LBC with a Grendel bolt, or does it take a 7.62 bolt?)

All of these different companies naming similar chambers different things is difficult. People still get confused when someone mentions a .30 WCF. Imagine how confusing it is for a newbie to sort through 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 CSS, 6.5 SAOD, .264 LBC, 6.5 Sporter, etc.

We try to help, but if we get a little frustrated by it, I think that is understandable.

We are lucky that the guy who developled the cartridge shows up and comments. If he is a little put off by others trying to modify the chamber and still call it a Grendel, well, that is also understandable.

There is a LOT of backstory on ARP and his different chambers, and its useless to get into it, but it has caused major divisions within the 6.8 community, and I really don't want to see it here.

[cjgemm]

wow, this had nothing to do with the 6.8, if I would have said my POF .308 shooting a Barnes 130gr TTSX would that have made a difference?

Bill A., here is your quote:



but wow, are we a bit biased on this forum or what, way to much slamming going on here, not constructive criticism, but outright bias, I don't see other vendors or manufacturers doing that on many other forums, seems to be always the same ones, maybe its insecurity, inferiority complex, geez?? I don't know what it is, just never seen anything like it. I used to come read here when I got my first Grendels, as there are some good people on here like LRRPF52 and stokesrj, they weigh on a subject, whether opinion or fact and help out when they can, from what I read, those guys have alot of knowledge, experience and I value their opinion also. Heck Bill, if you don't remember you answered many of my questions years ago when I was learning about the Grendel, and I still think its a great cartridge, and I own two of your guns, but as with other cartridges, can always be improved or enhanced. Guess maybe I need to just come on here and read, and notice I didn't start this thread, I only gave my experience, thoughts and opinions and others have also that were shunned, almost like people are getting paid.

If you see it that way I guess. I surely don't agree that the Grendel is only good for launching 100gn pills. Kind of a slam in itself don't you think? Or at very least misleading.

ETA: I brought up 6.8 cause it is all over his site. I'm guessing it's his bread and butter.

[cjgemm]

elkbow,

Please explain why you feel there is bias? I work pretty hard to avoid that, and I try to keep everything as level as possible.

We ARE biased towards the Grendel, that is, after all, the name of the board. So far as the similar caliber chamberings, I'll admit we have some issues, mostly because they create significant confusion regarding what goes with what. (ie...can you us a Grendel barrel with a7.62 bolt? or a .264 LBC with a Grendel bolt, or does it take a 7.62 bolt?)

All of these different companies naming similar chambers different things is difficult. People still get confused when someone mentions a .30 WCF. Imagine how confusing it is for a newbie to sort through 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 CSS, 6.5 SAOD, .264 LBC, 6.5 Sporter, etc.

We try to help, but if we get a little frustrated by it, I think that is understandable.

We are lucky that the guy who developled the cartridge shows up and comments. If he is a little put off by others trying to modify the chamber and still call it a Grendel, well, that is also understandable.

There is a LOT of backstory on ARP and his different chambers, and its useless to get into it, but it has caused major divisions within the 6.8 community, and I really don't want to see it here.

Followed the Grendel when it first came out and just got the itch again recently (kind of took a back burner). What happened that all these other 6.5 chamberings came about. I got a hold of Satern and was told that they only do the LBC now? Didn't they use to make Grendel barrels? Fill in the huge gap that I'm missing.

[stokesrj]

I think Bill's post was in the sarcastic mode, meaning, "What would Hornady know about hunting, after all, thats what they design bullets for!".

Sometimes his British English, and the American Idiom, don't quite mesh! I know he respects and likes Steve Hornady a great deal.

Yes, I get it, my attempt to join the sarcasm, I'm British by geenology going back to the 11th century, but I think the practical US senetiment has prevailed. I'm now just a sophisticated southern red neck.

[montana]

This is a forum for opinion's not necessarily the final word. Elkbow was just giving his opinion and came to a different conclusion than others. But when Bill Alexander gives advice (the creator of the 6.5 Grendel) I don't think it is very wise to argue .He did invent the #%@$ cartridge after all. I have a shop filled with the latest,and greatest junk that did nothing but make me poorer and my firearms less reliable. I have had different opinions with others on this site but if Bill tells me I'm wrong I'm going to at least acknowledge he probably knows more than me especially when it comes to the Grendel.

[LightningII]

Hunting situations? Shot placement trumps all. Assuming adequate penetration and sufficient bullet mass to permanently disrupt a vital structure once it's hit, very minor differences in grain weight and frontal area are moot. (And, yes, the differences between 110gr and 120gr and 6.8 and 6.5 are, indeed, insignificant relative to the body mass of a whitetail deer.)

John

agreed on placement. always.
The high BC Grendel bullet SHOULD retain velocity a little better after it strikes, but I doubt that the animal knows the difference.

[woohoo]

Are we having fun yet or what? Hey Mr. A, John, Bill, long time no see.
I'm not calling anything a Grendel, just saying the barrels will shoot either Grendel or 264LBC ammo. I started messing with one of Arnes 6.5 rifles back in 05 and since I have made 4 different chambers, just little tweaks and tested them with PacNors and Kriegers and Bartleins . This particular chamber will put 10 Black Hills loaded 123 smks into 1/2". Shoots all of what little factory ammo that is out there just fine too. Handloads with 100 Noslers and 100 Barnes, 123 Amax also very accurate. They are 18" hunting barrels made because a bunch of customers ask me to make a 6.5. I sell 6.8s and 556s faster than anything so any other caliber will not turn a profit as fast, I'm only doing it because I had enough ask for it. It's definitely not about making money since we always have a backlog of 556s and 6.8s. As for the bolts, standard recess 7.62x39 bolts they will handle more pressure than the case will. Lapua cases will turn into a belted magnum looking thing before the bolts break as long as the receiver is square. The rest of this thread...opinions. If you don't KNOW the person what's the opinon worth?

[montana]

I know who Bill Alexander is, I don,t know who you are. GOOD ADVICE.

[woohoo]

I know who Bill Alexander is, I don,t know who you are. GOOD ADVICE.

Did you at least catch a glimpse of that as it went over? ...I didn't give any opinions.