04-24-2019, 04:33 PM (This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 11:00 PM by HokeyPokeyKid.)
I thought I would start a new thread about feeding issues with the Howa mini and the Bell and Carlson stock, without piling on to the other threads going on.
I just picked up 3 more magazines yesterday and 2 of them would not feed the last round at all. The rounds just started up the ramp then the back of the cartridge dropped down and the bolt slid over the top, I had to drop the mag to clear the round every time.
I looked through my collection of gun parts and found the spring from a 15 round M1 Carbine looked similar. The wire diameter is bigger and the spring is much stiffer.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]14174[/ATTACH]
With a little tweaking to fit the over bottom plate and the magazine went together and the feed issue stopped completely in both mags exhibiting problems. Loading the mags is noticeably stiffer but not difficult and the feed reliability went to 100% in the 2 mags that didn't work.
Interesting. Also from what I see the M1C has 5 iterations of spring vs the howa has like 4 maybe 4 1/2. Maybe that helps in presenting the round as well?
Are these M1C springs maybe available as a piece/part?
ps, ETA - my mags so far feed ok for the Boyds that I have.
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
04-24-2019, 05:09 PM (This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 05:10 PM by HokeyPokeyKid.)
grayfox Wrote:Interesting. Also from what I see the M1C has 5 iterations of spring vs the howa has like 4 maybe 4 1/2. Maybe that helps in presenting the round as well?
Are these M1C springs maybe available as a piece/part?
ps, ETA - my mags so far feed ok for the Boyds that I have.
The springs I have I pulled from a 50 year old magazine, Wolff Springs makes replacements though so I am ordering a pack of ten to see how well they work in this application.
8 of my 10 magazines feed in my B&C stock but 2 don't, I believe that the magazines are easier to fix than the stocks.
I notice that the springs are pretty weak on all of the Howa plastic mags, both Mini and short action (I have them for my Howa 308 as well). I may pick up some of these springs to try out!
04-24-2019, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 06:55 PM by HokeyPokeyKid.)
I ordered a 10 pack of Wolff Springs to try, They look slightly different in the pic, so I expect to have to modify the ends slightly to fit the factory follower and base plate but hopefully they work like the original M1 Carbine springs I have on hand.
I hope this will solve most of the issues people are having now and possibly be a good upgrade for this rifle as well.
The first link has springs that look identical to the springs I have on hand, and I have ordered from them many times. They will work as well as anything out there.
The only reason I didn't order those is a lot of times they're surplus parts and I was hoping to find a current manufacture spring that is available. This is good that replacements are easily found if this pans out as a viable alternative.
As soon as my 10 pack of springs arrives I will experiment further, right now I only have 2 surplus springs that I'm moving between different magazines to test function.
04-25-2019, 09:46 PM (This post was last modified: 04-25-2019, 09:50 PM by flatland1.)
Hokey - I've been building rifles on the Mini action since August of 2016. Would've started a month or three earlier, but somehow, someone at LSI sent me a 6.5 Grendel bbl'd action with a s/n prefix of 'XP', which I guess stood for 'experimental prototype'. When I let it slip that I had this action in a phone conversation with my former contact at LSI, he nearly went ballistic, and made it very clear that this action should never have left the LSI facility, and wanted it back, ASAP. That was in February of '16, and I didn't receive a replacement 6.5 Grendel bbl'd action until August of that year. I offer this info as sort of an explanation/justification for my opinion that the folks at LSI are not always sure what's going on. The people at Howa are most likely the ones that made the decision to go with the plastic trigger guard & magazines, and I've never really forgiven them for that. Whatever....pointing fingers seldom does much good, so on to my point & reason for this post.
Over the 14 years since I started building rifles, I've used a fair number of Badger Ordnance M5 DBM units on my own & customers' rifles. When there were feeding issues, we almost always looked at the magazine latch - if the bolt was rubbing on the magazine feed lips, we shortened the mag latch; if it was a case of bolt overriding cartridges, failing to pick them up & feed smoothly, we called B-O to order a longer mag latch. IIRC, they offer three different lengths of latches, and I've never had a feeding issue that a mag latch of the correct length didn't fix.
I emailed DIP over a month ago explaining this, after I'd had to cut the bottom metal inlet .035"-.040" deeper on a Boyds stock for the Mini. Maybe they don't have time to answer their emails, or maybe they thought mine was too whiney - I explained that I'd gotten to the point where my DIP DBM was perfectly flush in the Boyds' stock inlet, front & rear, so that I didn't really want to use the mill to cut the bottom inlet deeper, and was hoping that - especially since they'd announced & were making the new flush mag latch to work in their DIP DBM - that they'd consider making some latches with a longer latch nose that would hold magazines up a bit higher, thus fixing the failure to feed issues some of us were having. Never heard anything back, and haven't bothered to send another message. I suppose I could try drilling some very small holes in the nose of the mag latch & mixing up a dab of J-B Weld to build up the latch end of one of my OEM mag latches - in the hope that enough of the epoxy would go down into the drilled holes & reinforce the built-up engagement surface. But what I'd really like to see is for someone with your programming & fixturing skills to make some mag latches of extra length. A longer metal (aluminum) latch can easily be cut/filed shorter by the rifle's owner, and believe this would be a better fix in the long run. Would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
I have a longer magazine latch drawn up and ready to prototype, I am really just waiting for available machine time here in the shop.
I am personally fond of this little action and want to make as many improvements as I can. Hopefully down the road all the combined labor and trial and error put forth on this forum and others will make this little rifle great.
Both of you guys, I just want to say...
Amazing what good ole' American ingenuity can do when Corporate bean-counters ignore things!!!
By the way, where has Matt-Lsi been all these threads?
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
Hokey - That's great news! Will be checking in here as often as I can - got a lot of farm work that's going to keep me occupied for the next few weeks (unless it starts raining again), but don't think I don't have a strong desire to do whatever I can to help.
I've been a hard-core fan of the Mini action since I learned that they were going to make them with the correct boltface for the Grendel. Nothing has changed in that respect - it's just that I'm disappointed in how lethargic Howa & LSI have been when it comes to making upgrades to flawed parts such as the plastic bottom "metal". I'm aware of the downturn of customer demand in many segments of the gun business, but you'd think that with a group of shooters here who are so enthused with their Mini rifles, they'd be more likely to step up to the plate to help deal with a few of these minor issues. Guess we must be a very small segment of the overall shooting society....
I really don't see this as a magazine/bottom metal problem. In these aftermarket stocks, I'm assuming the companies are using existing stock patterns and just adjusting the inlet for these actions....well the actions are scaled down/smaller and the depth through the stock really needs to be adjusted. It should require an entirely new stock design with proper layout in the first place. I get the impression they are just trying to fit this new inlet into an existing stock they already build. What needs to happen is make a stock from scratch that fits the action and the human form, then build your molds (for the synthetic stocks anyway) and start making them.
04-26-2019, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 04-26-2019, 07:01 PM by HokeyPokeyKid.)
Msalm Wrote:I really don't see this as a magazine/bottom metal problem. In these aftermarket stocks, I'm assuming the companies are using existing stock patterns and just adjusting the inlet for these actions....well the actions are scaled down/smaller and the depth through the stock really needs to be adjusted. It should require an entirely new stock design with proper layout in the first place. I get the impression they are just trying to fit this new inlet into an existing stock they already build. What needs to happen is make a stock from scratch that fits the action and the human form, then build your molds (for the synthetic stocks anyway) and start making them.
Its more of a magazine tolerance issue, some magazines sit deeper than others, some have springs so weak they don't reliably push the last rounds up.
This really came to light because the B&C stock made the issue obvious. I have 10 magazines 8 of which feed flawlessly and 2 of which wont feed the last round. 2 of my stock Howa minis rifles actually have bolt drag on a couple of magazines because they sit higher in the gun than other mags.
I thought AICS and other manufactures mags drove me nuts, well, we have a winner. Sounds like I have a stock or two coming in for treatment. I know we can aid it adjusting the inletting, but my big fear is the mags may have a bigger impact. Regardless, we gotta move forward. No word from LS on yet (since mid week). This will not be forgotten.
Spring tension is weak, lips are not consistent. Latches? Latch position on mags? Regardless, I've found a happy ground.
On those magazines and bottom metals (plastic) I would think the only variation would be the amount of flashing remaining along the mold seams. Ive noticed some of this material along the feed lip edges and down the centers of the mag bodies. Deburring these edges were all that was needed. A sharp knife works well and pay attention to the inside of the feed lips. If the rounds sit low, sanding the inside edges will allow the rounds to sit a bit higher. Just another alternative to getting proper feeding. Still waiting on a lightweight offering from B&C and I’ll happily inlet the bottom metal deeper if necessary!
