hey guys, hope i dont get yelled at for this but, I dont have a grendel yet. i just have a 20 inch dpms AR15. I have been looking at getting a grendel or 6mm AR and now just read about the .243 LBC.
I read the .243 LBC uses grendel brass but you use a 6ppc die to neck it down not running it all the way through the die. Ok so i am new to reloading...sort of. I have loaded hundreds of .223 but i always full length size. as well as full length size my 7-08 and .243. i have never done just neck sizing. Being that i already have a nice supply of .243 bullets, one of these 6mm grendels would be more interesting than a 6.5.
so could someone explain exactly how you would use a 6ppc die to partially size a 6.5 grendel to .243 LBC?
what is the advantage of .243 LBC over 6mm AR? is it cheaper? how do they compare as far as velocity with the same bullets? Are there a lot of people that can make them? thanks guys.
Posts: 4,444
Threads: 97
Joined: Mar 2011
02-07-2012, 02:46 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2012, 03:13 AM by bwaites.)
hydrotech Wrote:hey guys, hope i dont get yelled at for this but, I dont have a grendel yet. i just have a 20 inch dpms AR15. I have been looking at getting a grendel or 6mm AR and now just read about the .243 LBC.
I read the .243 LBC uses grendel brass but you use a 6ppc die to neck it down not running it all the way through the die. Ok so i am new to reloading...sort of. I have loaded hundreds of .223 but i always full length size. as well as full length size my 7-08 and .243. i have never done just neck sizing. Being that i already have a nice supply of .243 bullets, one of these 6mm grendels would be more interesting than a 6.5.
so could someone explain exactly how you would use a 6ppc die to partially size a 6.5 grendel to .243 LBC?
what is the advantage of .243 LBC over 6mm AR? is it cheaper? how do they compare as far as velocity with the same bullets? Are there a lot of people that can make them? thanks guys.
First, welcome to the Grendel boards!
You actually have to do two steps, resize with Grendel dies, then resize the neck with PPC dies. There isn't a single step process die out there yet that I am aware of.
I think its a little funny that some of these guys are calling it a .243 LBC. They simply don't have the gumption to actually pay for the right way to do something and they want to distract from someone who has actually done the work and had proper dies made!
A gentleman name Robert Whitley came up with the cartridge years ago. Its called the 6mm AR, and he also developed a 6mmAR Turbo, with a different shoulder and shoulder angle. You CAN buy dies for the cartridge from him and learn a lot more about it on his site:
http://www.6mmar.com/
The .243 LBC is simply a rip off of his work, much like the .264 LBC, 6.5 CSS, 6.5 SAOD etc. are rip offs of Bill Alexanders work. People will say that they aren't, but if not, where is the 6.5 CSS ammo, or the 6.5 SAOD ammo? Yes, there is some .264 LBC ammo, one loading, available from ONE place. Where are the mags these guys developed for their "cartridges"?
Sorry, but I'm tired and and I'm more tired of people who steal ideas from others and then act like its new!
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
6-223, 86 gr bullet, 2700: .243 LBC, 85 gr bullet 2800: 6.5 Grendel, 85 gr bullet 2900, but try pushing a 123 gr bullet out of the first two and see what happens.
bwaites Wrote:First, welcome to the Grendel boards!
You actually have to do two steps, resize with Grendel dies, then resize the neck with PPC dies. There isn't a single step process die out there yet that I am aware of.
I think its a little funny that some of these guys are calling it a .243 LBC. They simply don't have the gumption to actually pay for the right way to do something and they want to distract from someone who has actually done the work and had proper dies made!
A gentleman name Robert Whitley came up with the cartridge years ago. Its called the 6mm AR, and he also developed a 6mmAR Turbo, with a different shoulder and shoulder angle. You CAN buy dies for the cartridge from him and learn a lot more about it on his site:
http://www.6mmar.com/
The .243 LBC is simply a rip off of his work, much like the .264 LBC, 6.5 CSS, 6.5 SAOD etc. are rip offs of Bill Alexanders work. People will say that they aren't, but if not, where is the 6.5 CSS ammo, or the 6.5 SAOD ammo? Yes, there is some .264 LBC ammo, one loading, available from ONE place. Where are the mags these guys developed for their "cartridges"?
Sorry, but I'm tired and and I'm more tired of people who steal ideas from others and then act like its new!
+1 well said bill
fanofflyn Wrote:6-223, 86 gr bullet, 2700: .243 LBC, 85 gr bullet 2800: 6.5 Grendel, 85 gr bullet 2900, but try pushing a 123 gr bullet out of the first two and see what happens.
why would the .243 LBC shoot an 85 grain bullet slower than a .264 85 grain bullet? I woulda thought with a similiar case capacity the smaller diameter bullet would be faster?
Posts: 4,444
Threads: 97
Joined: Mar 2011
Actually, its a physics issue, related to the piston area, as I understand it. If you have a bigger surface area to work with, you can create higher velocities with the bigger piston.
It's counter-intuitive to me, but its been discussed at length on multiple forums, and if you examine the ballistics and reloading tables, its consistent with those findings.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Bwaites has it right!
I did the calculations awhile back after poring through an awful lot of load data.
Try comparing bullets with close to the same sectional density -- the velocities should show to be somewhat closer, with the smaller diameter actually being generally faster.
That, coupled with the slightly better shape factor (smaller bullet of same sectional density is skinnier), is one of the reasons the 6mm AR shoots so flat compared to the Grendel.
Of course, the 85gr 6mm will have a better BC than the 85gr 6.5mm, so the attraction to the 6mm AR is for guys who want to reach out further for target-shooting, high-power, etc. LR1955 has more experience with this, so I'll look forward to his input on it.
The Wolverine
Unregistered
Myself and a buddy are the ones that designed the 243LBC. I have a 6x45, and love it, but wanted more speed, was thinking 6PPC, then decided on more case capacity and decided to lengthen the PPC 70 thousandths, and use necked down Grendel brass with 6PPC dies.
I had never even heard the name Robert Whitley, until the first discussion with our reamer manufacture, he brought up his name, and that he was doing something similar. Mr. Whitley has done some awesome work. and has probably forgotten more about wildcatting than I know.
I did not do this to compete with anyone, I did this because I wanted one, and it has kinda taken on a life of it's own.
I am not sure where the 85gr at 2800fps came from, but I am getting over 2800fps with a 100gr Partition out of a 20'' barrel that has to be loaded to 2.195 OAL because we designed the 243LBC with a VLD chamber. I am getting no pressure signs, and have plenty of case capacity left to work up more speed, but the accuracy is so good, I have not tried for more speed yet.
Hydeotech, you do run the case all the way into the 6PPC die, it is full length resizing all but the last 70 thousandths of the case at the web which is the strongest part of the case. One of BHW Prostaff has 12 reloads on Lapua brass and has had no problems, that same Prostaffer is getting 2965fps with a 95gr VLD out of a 20'' barrel.
Paul
hydrotech Wrote:why would the .243 LBC shoot an 85 grain bullet slower than a .264 85 grain bullet? I woulda thought with a similiar case capacity the smaller diameter bullet would be faster?
This is the same idea that is behind the .338 Federal. The .338 Federal is a .308 Winchester necked up to .338 and it is able to push the same weight of bullet faster than the .308 Win. Armalite chambers this round in their AR-10. The larger diameter bullet for a given weight slows down faster and does not have as good of BC but is able to deliver more energy at close ranges than the .308 Win.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Federal
Wolverine,
can you shoot heavy 6mm VLD's with that .243 LBC? like over 107 to 108 grains? and also, How do you know when you are .070 (thats 70 thousandths right) from the bottom? why cant you run it all the way through the die? I am guessing that would bump the shoulders at the top of the case back? thanks, i have only been reloading a few months.
The Wolverine Wrote:Myself and a buddy are the ones that designed the 243LBC. I have a 6x45, and love it, but wanted more speed, was thinking 6PPC, then decided on more case capacity and decided to lengthen the PPC 70 thousandths, and use necked down Grendel brass with 6PPC dies.
I had never even heard the name Robert Whitley, until the first discussion with our reamer manufacture, he brought up his name, and that he was doing something similar. Mr. Whitley has done some awesome work. and has probably forgotten more about wildcatting than I know.
I did not do this to compete with anyone, I did this because I wanted one, and it has kinda taken on a life of it's own.
I am not sure where the 85gr at 2800fps came from, but I am getting over 2800fps with a 100gr Partition out of a 20'' barrel that has to be loaded to 2.195 OAL because we designed the 243LBC with a VLD chamber. I am getting no pressure signs, and have plenty of case capacity left to work up more speed, but the accuracy is so good, I have not tried for more speed yet.
Hydeotech, you do run the case all the way into the 6PPC die, it is full length resizing all but the last 70 thousandths of the case at the web which is the strongest part of the case. One of BHW Prostaff has 12 reloads on Lapua brass and has had no problems, that same Prostaffer is getting 2965fps with a 95gr VLD out of a 20'' barrel.
Paul
The Wolverine
Unregistered
I have shot 105's, but they are not VLD's. The fastest twist for the 243LBC from Black Hole Weaponry right now is 1 in 9, It may take a 1 in 8 for the really long bullets, I am trying to talk them into doing 1 in 8 twist. A local shop just started selling Berger, I am going to try and get by there and pick up some 105 VLD's and see how they do.
I am a hunter, never been much of a paper puncher, but with how good this gun shoots, I want to do some long range paper punching. I am trying to find a place to do some 1000yard shooting. The 105 VLD would be the ticket for 1000+ yards. I do not have the data in front of me, IIRC the computer says the 105VLD will stay supersonic out to around 1300 yards.
Yes, if you push the die all the way to the shell plate, you will push the shoulder back and have a 6PPC, I use a bump gauge with a set of calipers to size the case.
Fire stick
![[Image: 20120120_200307.jpg]](http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/20120120_200307.jpg)
3 shot 100 yard group when I was sighting in the 100gr Partition for deer and hogs.
![[Image: 20120125_175859.jpg]](http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/20120125_175859.jpg)
so is the case dimensions of the grendel case and shoulder (not counting the neck) changed when resizing grendel brass in a 6ppc die?
i also went to black hole weaponry and did not see the .243 LBC for sale.
The Wolverine
Unregistered
I honestly do not know what the differences are, I have never looked at a Grendel chamber specs, or the 6mmAR chamber spec for that matter. I knew what I wanted, and built it.
The 243LBC chamber specs are on the BHW forum if you have Grendel specs, you can compare them. http://www.blackholeweaponry.proboards.c...&thread=56
Call BHW about the 243LBC, I did not realize it was not on there site.
Wow, My 22" 6XC bolt gun can only push a 105 to 2970 fps using 10 more grains of powder. Maybe David Tubb should come talk to you.
The Wolverine
Unregistered
cjgemm Wrote:Wow, My 22" 6XC bolt gun can only push a 105 to 2970 fps using 10 more grains of powder. Maybe David Tubb should come talk to you.
I have not chrono'd the 105gr, but your 6XC should beat my 20" 243LBC by 240fps or so.
Paul
I stopped at ejector flow. according to QL that was about 58-59000 PSI. I could make them go faster 3000+ , but backed off .5 gns to save brass barrel. According to your load QL puts you about 59000psi and 2719 fps. Granted that was using the 6mm AR. To get 2800+ I had to add a grain(29 gns 8208) and the resulting chamber pressure increased to 66000psi.
The Wolverine
Unregistered
The 2800+ I am getting is with a 100gr partition, which is a lot shorter than a 105gr, I am expecting to get low 2700 with the 105's
|
