I have been a fan of the larger caliber AR's for a while now. For me it started with the Beowulf. I bought mine, started reloading, did a lot of testing with it and found it to be "as advertised" for its intended purpose. I was also interested in the 6.5 Grendel and wanted to get an upper chambered for this cartridge in the worst way but none were available back then and overpriced if you did happen to actually find one. I did purchase a 6.5 Grendel barrel for my encore and do believe in this cartridge's ability, although it has limitations as well. It has been about three years now and since then AA has opened up the Grendel platform for others to manufacture and still others have made the same cartridge only under a different name with minimal changes to the case, the price on these uppers is still stupidly expensive, IMO.
Now, I take nothing from the Grendel and actually prefer it over the 6.8 SPC but honestly there is not enough difference ballistically between these two cartridges to make any difference out to 300 yds which is really over the max range of either of these cartridges to make it a preferred hunting round. Even at the competition level, much over 300 yds there are much better options of cartridges to use over either of these rounds. I opted at the time to go with a WSSM upper because of the limitations of both the Grendel and the SPC but I still keep coming back to wanting a lightweight mid-range caliber AR-15 rifle. Of the other options out there the Grendel and SPC are the only real options because the other .30 cal options are just not really realistic for hunting applications unless you go back to the WSSM case. The "Blackout"; A remake of the 7.62x39, Really? I get better velocities out of my 10" Encore with the Grendel. The "Whisper"; a ballistic joke. Neither are really "useful" for "legal" hunting purposes much past 100 yards, especially the whisper.
I would like to have a 6.5 upper but I just can understand why these uppers are $300+ more than the 6.8 SPC offerings. There is nothing special in the manufacturing of the Grendel over the SPC, so why is it more expensive? Am I missing something? I will probably buy an upper this spring and unless somebody can change my mind I will most likely opt for the SPC simply because of the price of the upper because I see no real difference in the cartridges. In fact, if my Encore barrel wasn't so darn accurate, I would have sold it off a long time ago, 1" groups are easy. If I do make this decision, I will replace it with a 6.8 barrel to match the upper I get. Please, somebody help me to see the err of my ways and tell me why the 6.5 Grendel is worth the extra $$$.
What uppers are you comparing to get a $300 price difference?
You could always buy a barrel and build the rest of the upper to suit your needs, probably be cheaper too.
Uhh.....I to have fought with this same thought in my search for a lighter recoiling AR round to hunt with. The short answer is it cost more because it is awesome and the SPC is okay. Sorry thats all I got!
I definatley here you though on the price. Have you checked out J&T Distributing? Their stuff is reasonably priced.
Posts: 4,444
Threads: 97
Joined: Mar 2011
A significant contributor to the cost of a built upper is the barrel. Since all the other parts are identical, (the bolts are different, but cost essentially the same) the ONLY difference is the quality of the barrel. When I compare comparable barreled uppers, I don't see much difference in price.
Where are you seeing $300 difference?
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Uhh.....Cuz the grendel is awsome and the SPC is ok? That's all I got. It does seem that some of the grendel uppers available offer better barrels. You can get a stainless bull barrel upper from J&T Distributing for $634, of course the same upper in 6.8 is about $50 bucks less. I don't know why, and I'm not going "go there" on the licensing thing. I to have struggled with the same things you describe in your post, while searching for a lighter recoiling / more accurate upper than my .450 BM, it appears to me the Grendel shines at longer distances, where the 6.8 was a tactical load that has much closer intentions. From what I have read within 2-300 yds there is not a nickels difference between them. If I am wrong I'm sure someone will correct me, and no I have never handled either of them.
For hunting purposes though the grendel will give you the ability to reach out a little further. So apples to apples, as in the J&T example, I would opt for the grendel.
I also started with a big bore AR, as I have always hunted with high power rifles (7mmRM 30-06) it seemed to be the way to go for my hunting situation, and has worked very well. My original decision came down to 450BM and 65 Gr. I now have reasons to get a Grendel that were not necessarily in play before. This time around I also looked into the SPC, and decided I wanted the extra distance the Grendel is capable of, even though I may never need it.
Posts: 4,444
Threads: 97
Joined: Mar 2011
There is NO licensing fee for the Grendel and there never was. The license simply required maintaining the appropriate quality standards and using the appropriate chamber as defined by the license in order to use the name. That is how Alexander Arms maintained quality control and made sure that the ammunition would always work with licensed barrels.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Ok. Barrel manufacturer and quality may account for some of the difference. I do understand that a barrel is not a barrel and quality barrels cost more. However, I am talking standard, run of the mill factory upper offerings. I am comparing the price differences between uppers I see advertised and on Gunbroker. The main reason I prefer the Grendel to the SPC is the fact that the barrels are usually longer than the 16" carbine offerings. I do not intend to "build" an upper. The upper is the part that can have issues and the part that comes apart if there is a problem. I just prefer to have that responsibility on the manufacturer and not on me. If it doesn't shoot accurate or has a function issue, I send it back and they fix it. I am confident I can do it, but not my preference. I have built several lowers and have no issue with that part, but if there is a problem there, things don't explode! Uppers that I see that are comparable are around $900 for a Grendel and $600 for the SPC. Show me where I can buy a $600 6.5 Grendel complete upper. Please.
VA Bigbore Wrote:Ok. Barrel manufacturer and quality may account for some of the difference. I do understand that a barrel is not a barrel and quality barrels cost more. However, I am talking standard, run of the mill factory upper offerings. I am comparing the price differences between uppers I see advertised and on Gunbroker. The main reason I prefer the Grendel to the SPC is the fact that the barrels are usually longer than the 16" carbine offerings. I do not intend to "build" an upper. The upper is the part that can have issues and the part that comes apart if there is a problem. I just prefer to have that responsibility on the manufacturer and not on me. If it doesn't shoot accurate or has a function issue, I send it back and they fix it. I am confident I can do it, but not my preference. I have built several lowers and have no issue with that part, but if there is a problem there, things don't explode! Uppers that I see that are comparable are around $900 for a Grendel and $600 for the SPC. Show me where I can buy a $600 6.5 Grendel complete upper. Please.
J&T Distributing
Posts: 692
Threads: 63
Joined: Nov 2011
I bought my Upper 16" Tactical at a gun show (Mesquite, Tx.) from SOG arms out of Houston, Tx. I paid around $750 for the entire rifle (Upper and lower w/ 6.5 Grendel tags); and it shoots sub MOA at 100 yards. They pieced everything together and built it for me right there free of charge to save me money.
Posts: 4,444
Threads: 97
Joined: Mar 2011
VA Bigbore Wrote:Uppers that I see that are comparable are around $900 for a Grendel and $600 for the SPC. Show me where I can buy a $600 6.5 Grendel complete upper. Please.
Here:
http://jtdistributing.net/store/page170.html
or here:
http://jtdistributing.net/store/page175.html
They will also assemble one to your specs for only a slight bit more.
Even AA has their Tactical uppers for $640-650.
As more and more people start building Grendels, we will see the competition drive the price down some, but remember, the strength of the Grendel is in longer range accuracy, and that requires that high quality barrels be used. Most Grendel buyers in the past have focused on its advantages over the 5.56 at distance, so higher quality barrels and builds were demanded, thus driving price as well.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Alrighty!! Thanks. That is a much better price on the Grendel uppers I have seen. Bear in mind I am not looking for absolute accuracy in my upper. 1" at 100 yds is acceptable to me for this upper's purpose. I would never intend to shoot over 200 yds in a hunting condition if carrying this rifle. I have the WSSM upper for that. :-) I will check into jtd a little more over the next couple months. Anybody have any idea of the lead time on them or any comments on their customer service and products?
Kikn, That is a good price for an AR of any chambering. I am not a tactical guy though and a bit far from TX. A 20" or even maybe 18" is the minimum length for me. I am not a fan of the 16" barrel, although it would probably work for my application. Of course I want as much accuracy as I can get and a high end barrel is optimum, but just not what I am after for this upper and cartridge. Thanks for all who replied, and thanks for the links and info. Will definitely give them a look and see what happens.
Huh........just to comment further, the 6.8 offering on the JTD site is $50 cheaper for the exact same setup...... Grendel upper is $545.......SPC upper is $495. Still makes me wonder why the difference. Same barrel length, same components, but still cheaper. $50 is not enough to swing me either way because I would have more than that in dies and components, but still curious why the difference.
Also, for $585, you can get a 24" bull barrel with a free-float handguard and a low gas block. Hmmmm........now we are not apples to apples again and has me wondering again.
Posts: 4,444
Threads: 97
Joined: Mar 2011
What it isn't is a licensing fee. BUT....the demand has been outstripped by the supply for a long time, so maybe that is the reason?
It is interesting though!
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Posts: 6,206
Threads: 50
Joined: Mar 2011
I bought a j & T dist. Kit last year and I called to make the order. The sales rep stated the upper I wanted was in stock and I received the upper in about two weeks. The fit and finish is good and comparable to any rack grade Stag, BCM, Delton or Bushmaster. I bought a 16" barrel with A-2 fixed front sight tower and the barrel is not chromed lined. Shooting off a lead sled at 100 yards my rifle had 3 rounds touching with factory 123 grain A-max. My upper was placed on a double Star lower with RRA NM LPK I assembled myself. I've loaded some 85, 95, 100, 120 and 123 grain ammo and all will shoot from 1.75" or less at 100 yards if I do my part. The only ammo rifle hasn't shot well is Wolfe 123 grain SP and black hills loaded with 123 SMK which seem to shoot groups of about 2 inches. I'm very satisfied with the J & T I bought, however I believe you get what you pay for. You'll never know how good a barrel shoots till you take it to the range.
Thanks VASCAR2. I sent them an email about availability and lead times for both 20" versions and the 24" bull version of the SPC. Coincidently, after sending the email to them I did find that they do offer a 20" bull version of the 6.5 Grendel. Oh.......the cat's meow. If memory serves it was $585, but not positive. It was close to that. Now, depending on the reply of lead time and availability all I have to do is come up with the $$$. Just makes cents (sense) to stick with the one I already have dies, brass and bullets for. May even not scope this one or at least put a red dot sight on it and keep it for a brush gun version. Oh, there I go again trying to make decisions on something I don't even have yet!! LOL Might just have to take out the Hi Point 4595 carbine and have some fun before I get too deep in thought on that.........ha,ha.
VA Bigbore: Mark Larue of Larue Tactical had taken an elk at approx. 450 yards in Colorado to give you some idea of the takedown power of the Grendel over 400 yards.
He had it posted on ar15.com last year.
Lee
I haven't noticed any differences between a Grendel and the 6.8 SPC as to prices. Barrel/botl combos will be the same if comparing button-rifled barrels. Stripped uppers are the same. Mags are the same unless you buy PRI 6.8 mags, which are 3x the price of an ASC mag.
I have never seen a $300 difference between uppers in these cartridges over the years...they have been the same, in my experience dealing with numerous suppliers and vendors across the country.
Posts: 1,685
Threads: 55
Joined: Mar 2011
Cut-rifled barrels that are relatively common for the Grendel tend to run the price up compared to 6.8 SPC uppers, which nearly always use button-rifled barrels. Be sure that you're comparing apples to apples.
If you don't plan to shoot at longer distances, you'll notice little difference between the two cartridges.
Drifter
Yep, and the poachers in Africa kill elephants with AK's and .22's as well. Just because somebody can get lucky and kill an animal with an underpowered cartridge does not make it a good option. Any person who can make a kill such as this should know better than to do it. Just my opinion, but they do not get my respect for doing stupid stunts like that.
leopard6.5 Wrote:VA Bigbore: Mark Larue of Larue Tactical had taken an elk at approx. 450 yards in Colorado to give you some idea of the takedown power of the Grendel over 400 yards.
He had it posted on ar15.com last year.
Lee
Posts: 3,214
Threads: 215
Joined: Jun 2011
VA, I agree with you about being an ethical hunter. Shooting past 300 yards at a big game animal is poor practice. Unless your using a 300' 338' or even a 270 comparable cartridge the power factor isn't there. Plus you have to have the accuracy, skill and conditions to even think of shooting at those distances. At our local long range shoots I have seen some competitors hit past 1000 yards on small targets with 5.56 ar rifles but they would never hunt at those ranges with that caliber.That's why they have a hunters class and a precision class competition. Wounding animals is what any ethical hunter try's to avoid. Save the hail mary shots for competition or battle. Seeing suffering animals isn't something an old hunter like me cares to experience.
|
