Cz-527

[bwaites]

Stupid is as stupid does!

[LRRPF52]

I mean, are they really going to machine and produce a different bolt and magazine for the 6.8? What chamber drawing will they use....the SAAMI with the incorrect throat angle that is insanely dangerous, or a non-SAAMI safe one? What bullets will shooters be able to use? Ain't loading longer .277 pills into that action unless you single-feed. I looked at the 527's mag...it is short for a reason. None of these are problems with the Grendel.

A lot of major industry figures don't even know that the Grendel is SAAMI spec'd, and still are under the impression that Bill A. is "holding control of the cartridge to himself". I tell you, whoever sewed the seeds of disinformation against the Grendel did an outstanding job of brainwashing the industry into believing their BS hook, line, and sinker.

It will still come around since there is too wide a base of support and demand for the cartridge. LAR had their 22" gun on display, and it is quite nice, with one of their new handguards, a blasted finish stainless barrel, PRS, and so forth. LAR is doing some pretty cool stuff with side chargers too...like a left-side charger, with normal ejection.

CZ will continue to have people ordering 527's with zero intent of ever touching copper to the 7.62x39 bores, and should ask them right up front for a barrel trade-in value, or for them to just sell actions. Maybe I need to give the guys at Surgeon rifles a plug for a micro action.

I also saw Zastava rifles that looked like they have micro actions.

[hm2 clark]

I am pretty sure that the Zastava 7.62 x 39 is the same rifle as the Remngton 799/MiniMauser/Mini MKX. All ARE micro length with the proper bolt diameter and magazine feed. They make fine Grendels. A Group buy of the actions would be an alternate to the CZ 527.

[hm2 clark]

Oh if anyone wants a CZ 527 carbine barrel take off in 7.62 its yours for the shipping cost.

[bwaites]

Panda already makes one. The problem is that none of the specialty actions are mag fed, though I would think that could be fixed.

There is now bottom metal for the Remington actions that will accept AR mags, which would be the coolest thing in the world, since no new mags would have to be designed.

Mossberg makes an action that would work, accepts AR mags, but so far as I know, no 7.62x39 bolts.

Hmmm.....

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default...splay=feat

[JASmith]

The benefits of higher pressure loads are presently available only to the reloader. I wonder how the picture might change if someone were to offer a 140 gr +P or +P+ loading (relative to the current 50 ksi limit)?

[blackfoot]

http://www.montanarifleco.com/mini%20action.html

Would this work if you opened up the bolt face? It's still in design so maybe they would be open to a few with a larger bolt face?

[txgunner00]

The benefits of higher pressure loads are presently available only to the reloader. I wonder how the picture might change if someone were to offer a 140 gr +P or +P+ loading (relative to the current 50 ksi limit)?

Loads like this would be great but major manufacturers would probably see them as too much of a liability. +P+ rifle loads would have the potential for much greater damage than pistol loads. I'd be willing to bet some numb skull would try to fire them in an AR and cause a KB. A specialty manufacturer might me more inclined to offer such a load. It would be worth pursuing IMO.

[JASmith]

Loads like this would be great but major manufacturers would probably see them as too much of a liability. +P+ rifle loads would have the potential for much greater damage than pistol loads. I'd be willing to bet some numb skull would try to fire them in an AR and cause a KB. A specialty manufacturer might me more inclined to offer such a load. It would be worth pursuing IMO.

Best way to mitigate that problem is to field a .25 or 6mm Grendel with the newer bolts and run at the higher pressures from the get-go. There is load data published by powder manufacturers for the PPC that runs at 59000 psi for standard loads with a separate set of data for 63000 psi, so the base cartridge can handle it.

Problem is that the cartridge would be starting at the bottom of the introduction / acceptance ladder and we've seen what the Grendel has been overcoming.

[txgunner00]

I would think factory loads would have a better chance of happening if they were a SAAMI cartridge design. I like the idea of the .25 or 6mm high pressure Grendel based rounds as wildcats. They would be screamers but limited to reloaders. Also we would be looking at custom reamers and dies.

[JASmith]

...we would be looking at custom reamers and dies.

That would certainly be true if ten of us each went to ten different barrel makers and ten different die makers.

What would happen if a small group ordered ten or so sets of barrels and dies from single sources? The "custom surcharge" should logically be divided by something close to ten.

Main challenge could be deciding which action to go with. For example, I lean toward the Savage because the barrel nut lets me inexpensively move from one caliber to another. Others like the CZ 527 because it is a very handy rifle. Still others like the TC because changing barrels seems to be even easier than the Savage.

In principle, the die and reamer costs could be split among the implied "super group"...

[Drifter]

I would think factory loads would have a better chance of happening if they were a SAAMI cartridge design. I like the idea of the .25 or 6mm high pressure Grendel based rounds as wildcats. They would be screamers but limited to reloaders. Also we would be looking at custom reamers and dies.

FWIW, I think the 6mmAR and 6mmAR Turbo are based on the Grendel case:

http://www.6mmar.com/

(Obviously, it's not bolt rifles on the link, but there's cartridge info that you might find helpful.)

[WillD]

I've been conversing with the CZ Custom Shop and I'm told that until the 6.5 Grendel trademark is officially relinquished,

"I have to go by what the US Patent and Trademark Office lists. Currently you can see that it is still listed as “LIVE” http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=d...tpp96c.2.5",

that they are unable to chamber for the Grendel. They do offer both LBC and SAOD chambers. I can't find much about SAOD but I remember some discussion here about it's use in AR's.

What are the preferences for a bolt gun and why?

Cheers, Will

[txgunner00]

My interest in a grendel bolt gun is for a feather weight hunting rifle for my daughters. This is where the CZ527 and Rem799 come in with the "mirco" actions. Other than that I'm really not set on any particular action. I like the interchangeability of the savage but it does weigh a bit more than the others, not enough to be a deal breaker though. TC are an option for me also but lower on the list because I'd rather have a repeater.

[LRRPF52]

As I was just looking through my new Midway catalog, I noticed that there are CZ magazines for the 527 in the following calibers:

.204 Ruger
.223 Remington
.222 Remington
.221 Fireball
7.62x39

That is crazy that they offer these, especially since 3 of those are way low-demand calibers like .221, .222, and 7.62x39.

[hm2 clark]

WillD, no reason not to go with the .264 LBC. The ammo is interchangable with the 6.5 grendel. I have bolt actons in both and they are about as accurate with hand loads. There is 1 load from AA that I have difficulty extractin from the LBC, but Wolf and factory hornady loads shoot and fuction just as well between both grendel and lbc. That being said, when I replace my LBC barrel I'll try and use a 6.5 sammi aproved Grendel barrel. I suggest you "go for it" and get a 6.5x39; ignore the petty stuff and enjoy your rifle.

[JASmith]

...That is crazy that they offer these, especially since 3 of those are way low-demand calibers like .221, .222, and 7.62x39.

Are there public or industry databases that would let us know what the annual sales of rifles in those calibers are?

The more nearly apple-to-apples comparison for the Grendel are with the .221 and .222 since the 7.62X39 is a military caliber and there is a rather large surplus market that distorts the statistics.

That information would be very useful in several different public and discussions.

[bwaites]

Are there public or industry databases that would let us know what the annual sales of rifles in those calibers are?

The more nearly apple-to-apples comparison for the Grendel are with the .221 and .222 since the 7.62X39 is a military caliber and there is a rather large surplus market that distorts the statistics.

That information would be very useful in several different public and discussions.

Even so, I bet the bolt rifle numbers for 7.62x39 is miniscule. I've never seen one, even in fairly large gun stores. I've seen THOUSANDS of semi-auto's, but no bolt guns. When I've asked, they've all said they would be happy to order one, but no one has ever ordered one that they can remember.

[vfrdrvr]

The thing I can't quite get my head around is, other than availability of ammo, why would anyone want a bolt gun in 7.62x39?

[LRRPF52]

The thing I can't quite get my head around is, other than availability of ammo, why would anyone want a bolt gun in 7.62x39?

T'ain't no reason for it! This is a Wookie from the Planet Endor. It does not make sense! I rest my case.