Bump Stock Ban

[stanc]

In this case, it's a matter of the ATF giveth and the ATF taketh what little is left of the 2A when enough political pressure is put on them.

You devoted two posts to anti-bureaucracy rants. When are you going to place the blame for this ban where it truly belongs, on Donald Trump?

[rebby]

I have yet to see any of the bureaucracies held accountable, even when they blatantly target political groups like the IRS did, allow millions of gallons of contaminated mineshaft water to be released like the EPA ordered in CO, or when the FBI participates in a palace coup attempt that seems to be ongoing.

In this case, it's a matter of the ATF giveth and the ATF taketh what little is left of the 2A when enough political pressure is put on them.

Meanwhile, like I said, you can have something far superior to a bumpstock if you want to hose rounds downrange without any funky external modification of the firearm.

This, exactly. I’m so fed up with these asinine laws and regulations changing one day to the next that I’m just going to bite the bullet and get my Class II SOT endorsement to my 07 FFL and call it a day. Then, at the very least, I can personally do essentially whatever without fear of losing my license, my business, or my freedom. I can do it all legally as well. Of course I’ll continue to operate within the confines of my license but at least I won’t need to worry as much about the next “reclassification” sending me to prison due to a politician going off half cocked.

[montana]

I have yet to see any of the bureaucracies held accountable, even when they blatantly target political groups like the IRS did, allow millions of gallons of contaminated mineshaft water to be released like the EPA ordered in CO, or when the FBI participates in a palace coup attempt that seems to be ongoing.

In this case, it's a matter of the ATF giveth and the ATF taketh what little is left of the 2A when enough political pressure is put on them.

.

Poor choice of words on my part, "my apologies". It is the "people" in the bureaucracies that can get thrown under the bus, not the actual bureaucracy. Even then it is done with much caution as not to start a snowball effect. Admiral James O. Richardson is a good example of such a fall guy, covering up for the real guilty parties. Bureaucracies are the enforcers for the political parties and true change will never occur until the majority understand this truth. I have never seen any leadership in a position of power, "willingly undermined that source of power" which are the bureaucracies.

[stanc]

Poor choice of words on my part, "my apologies". It is the "people" in the bureaucracies that can get thrown under the bus, not the actual bureaucracy. Even then it is done with much caution as not to start a snowball effect. Admiral James O. Richardson is a good example of such a fall guy, covering up for the real guilty parties. Bureaucracies are the enforcers for the political parties and true change will never occur until the majority understand this truth. I have never seen any leadership in a position of power, "willingly undermined that source of power" which are the bureaucracies.

Government and society cannot function without the bureaucracies. In any case, all the complaining about various bureaucratic misdeeds is off topic.

More importantly, none of you are discussing the elephant in the room. The ATF did not initiate this issue. It is Trump who is responsible for this ban.

"I signed a memorandum directing the Attorney General to propose regulations to ban all devices that turn legal weapons into machine guns." ~ Donald Trump, 20 Feb 2018

"The President once again fulfilling a promise he made to the American people, and this morning the acting Attorney General signed the final rule making clear that bump stocks are illegal." ~ Sarah Sanders, 18 Dec 2018

[stanc]

[video=youtube;PB8s5cjctzg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB8s5cjctzg[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB8s5cjctzg

Call the Trump Campaign HERE:
1-800-684-3043

Contact Trump’s Campaign Manager, Brad Parscale, HERE:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradparscale
https://www.parscale.com
https://www.twitter.com/bparscale
https://www.parscalestrategy.com

[Double Naught Spy]

What is the point in passing a law that the people will not comply with?

People don't comply with all laws.

[montana]

Government and society cannot function without the bureaucracies. In any case, all the complaining about various bureaucratic misdeeds is off topic.

More importantly, none of you are discussing the elephant in the room. The ATF did not initiate this issue. It is Trump who is responsible for this ban.

"I signed a memorandum directing the Attorney General to propose regulations to ban all devices that turn legal weapons into machine guns." ~ Donald Trump, 20 Feb 2018

"The President once again fulfilling a promise he made to the American people, and this morning the acting Attorney General signed the final rule making clear that bump stocks are illegal." ~ Sarah Sanders, 18 Dec 2018

Not so much of an elephant in the room as the same old song being played by a different band. Like I stated in my other post, the bump stock ban was a political move by the NRA and president Trump. The ATF is doing Trumps bidding as the ATF did Obama's bidding during the criminal gun runner fiasco. Bureaucracies will always do the bidding of their masters, even if it circumvents the law and, goes beyond their authority while committing serious crimes such as the Ruby Ridge and Waco fiascos. How many bureaucrats were jailed or personally held accountable for that gross misuse of force and murder?? Heck, it was the tax payers who had to pay off the surviving Weaver family members while the perps were promoted and given awards. The system makes it all most impossible to hold the high level bureaucrats personally liable for any high crimes and misdemeanors when compared to Joe six pack. That is, until it is politically convenient. How many bureaucrats went to jail for the gun runner fiasco?? At the end of the day, it is the elected officials who are responsible for the actions and powers entrusted to all bureaucrats. If all else fails, the citizens were given an ace up the sleeve, the 2ndA, but that is another argument.

[Sticks]

... If all else fails, the citizens were given an ace up the sleeve, the 2ndA, but that is another argument.

Well, if you are going to infer card play analogies, remember, The House Always Wins, and look what The House does to cheaters that get caught.

[LR1955]

[video=youtube;PB8s5cjctzg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB8s5cjctzg[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB8s5cjctzg

Call the Trump Campaign HERE:
1-800-684-3043

Contact Trump’s Campaign Manager, Brad Parscale, HERE:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradparscale
https://www.parscale.com
https://www.twitter.com/bparscale
https://www.parscalestrategy.com

Stan:

Let me make this extremely clear to you.

This forum isn't a podium for you to express your obsessive hatred for Trump. We know he proposed a ban on bump stocks so you don't have to tell us repeatedly. And you won't somehow turn us into leftists who will vote for a Communist or Socialist that will ban and confiscate all of our guns if they get power just because Trump proposed a bump stock ban.

And please, don't come back and say you were only advising us where to go to complain about the bump stock ban. We are not liberals or leftists. We have brains and if we want to complain about the bump stock ban, we know the process.

Take it somewhere else.

LR55

[LR1955]

OK Guys:

I have a question.

Why would a ban on bump stocks be a threat to the 2A? Please -- the 'slippery slope' argument is not an answer.

LR55

[Sticks]

Worded correctly (I have not read it, but was an area of concern), it could then be used as a precedent to continue/add to it.

I.E. - Any feature that increases the rate of fire/cyclic rate of a semi automatic firearm shall be included in this ban.

Binary triggers, rotary triggers, your freakin' finger if you have skill.

Who decides what "Rate of Fire" or "Cyclic Rate" actually is? Does some desk jockey that has never fired a gun, decide that the cyclic rate of a firearm shall not exceed 1 round fired every 2 seconds, because that is what a bolt action, pump action, lever action, break action, muzzle loader averages out to when they watch TV and you tube of what they feel is non offensive or excessively violent?

Will this then turn into a blanket "All semi automatic firearms shall be manufactured to not exceed the established cyclic rate"

[grayfox]

'55, I for one am not so sure it is a threat, but I will read others' opinions on it. I too have heard/seen the slippery slope argument, and am not necessarily persuaded.
My 2 cents:
I do think that leftists/globalists/demagogues are unabashedly bent on disarming all the populace (except for themselves) in their quest for power, and are willing to take a gradual. ratcheted approach to achieving same. But guys like (both) Cuomo's, Schneiderman, Bernie Sanders, Pelosi, Jerry-Moonbeam et al -- I watch and am leery of what they come up with legislative and judicially/persecutorial-wise, not so much worried on a bump-stock-whatever feature. If, and I say if, a stand against govt force ever becomes called-for (or even for a militia defense against an invading army), the resistance mode will not be rapid fire at close range mano-a-mano, rather directed/accurized, sometimes heavy, but distant fire from cover and multiple directions etc -- IMO. Asymmetric. A bump stock won't do anyone any real good in those scenarios IMO.

[montana]

Well, if you are going to infer card play analogies, remember, The House Always Wins, and look what The House does to cheaters that get caught.

I'm watching in France what happens when the house cheats. Remember, the house only last as long as the players are willing to play.

[LRRPF52]

I see the "allowance" of the bumpstock as an aberration in ATF trends towards more restrictions, moving the needle barely back towards placing the citizenry in the position we were in before the harm of 1934.

The ban now will become a property rights issue with all the lawsuits since the reversal of the ATF "allowance" because the reversal does not provide any means for compensation.

If you read the ATF's directions on how to handle destruction or turn-in of your bumpstock, you'll see that there is no discussion of compensation at all, which is in violation of due process under the Constitution, specifically annotated in the Bill of Rights:

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The whole debacle illustrates the fallacy of the NFA 1934, the GCA 1968, the existence of the ATF, and Federal interference in the citizenry keeping and bearing arms.

With all the lawsuits filed, it opens up the case that could potentially backfire on those who seek more restrictions on what little is left of the Second Amendment, especially when it ends up at SCOTUS and they are staring down the double barrel jeopardy of property rights and slapping down a bureaucratic Federal agency run amok for decades, without Congress being able to do a thing about it since they never have used their power to check the SCOTUS in any of our lifetimes that I can recall.

The bumpstock ban effectively presents itself as a big fist to the establishment if it boomerangs, whether anyone intended it to or not.

[montana]

'55, I for one am not so sure it is a threat, but I will read others' opinions on it. I too have heard/seen the slippery slope argument, and am not necessarily persuaded.
My 2 cents:
I do think that leftists/globalists/demagogues are unabashedly bent on disarming all the populace (except for themselves) in their quest for power, and are willing to take a gradual. ratcheted approach to achieving same. But guys like (both) Cuomo's, Schneiderman, Bernie Sanders, Pelosi, Jerry-Moonbeam et al -- I watch and am leery of what they come up with legislative and judicially/persecutorial-wise, not so much worried on a bump-stock-whatever feature. If, and I say if, a stand against govt force ever becomes called-for (or even for a militia defense against an invading army), the resistance mode will not be rapid fire at close range mano-a-mano, rather directed/accurized, sometimes heavy, but distant fire from cover and multiple directions etc -- IMO. Asymmetric. A bump stock won't do anyone any real good in those scenarios IMO.

The red dawn scenario is pure fantasy bunk. The masses are like flocks of sheep and instinctively want to be led by a shepherd, especially in high populated densities. Like I have stated many times before, the masses will follow perceptions rather than reality as long they are fed, housed, and relatively comfortable. People hate bureaucracies unless they are somehow dependent upon them. Then it becomes a different story. I have observed this with many conservative friends of mine. Bump Stocks are tactically useless toys with a bad P.R. "perception" with the masses, Trump and the NRA understood this and willingly sacrificed them for political reasons. The left will once again see this as a weakness and over reach their power, the right will exploit this and rally the troops with scared, angered gun owners and the process will continue. Rinse, dry, repeat.....This little dance has been going on for most of my life. The real party would begin if a severe crack down on gun confiscation were to occur with millions of gun owners getting imprisoned or killed. Then the red dawn fantasy could become a very real reality.

[montana]

The ban now will become a property rights issue with all the lawsuits since the reversal of the ATF "allowance" because the reversal does not provide any means for compensation.

If you read the ATF's directions on how to handle destruction or turn-in of your bumpstock, you'll see that there is no discussion of compensation at all, which is in violation of due process under the Constitution, specifically annotated in the Bill of Rights:

I agree with you but the government has been taking property for years with civil forfeiture, also called civil asset forfeiture or civil judicial forfeiture or occasionally civil seizure. I qoute: it is a "legal" process in which law enforcement officers take assets from persons suspected of involvement with crime or illegal activity without necessarily charging the owners or being found guilty or convicted of any crime.

[bj139]

The ATF and the president's job is to enforce laws created by the Congress. They cannot create new law.
Trump cannot legally do this and I think he knows it. The left must be very confused. Are they now for Trump or against him?

[Sticks]

The ATF and the president's job is to enforce laws created by the Congress. They cannot create new law.
Trump cannot legally do this and I think he knows it. The left must be very confused. Are they now for Trump or against him?

Wow. Exact same sentiment from the last 6, no 10, wait...18, um 30 years, just a different name and political party.

[bj139]

Wow. Exact same sentiment from the last 6, no 10, wait...18, um 30 years, just a different name and political party.

The reason I like Trump is because the Republicans and Democrats both hate him. He must be doing something right.

[Keef]

THE LEFT!!!!! DEMONS!!!!! If you don't vote the same as me your an idiot! Its funny as a Libertarian voter hearing this same crap from both sides.

It seems really risky to me to send something up the legal pipeline hoping it will be struck down. I'm not a lawyer, but the limited exposure I've had with courts and the legal system, LOGIC does NOT apply. Who know's what will happen!

I afraid it will be deemed LEGAL and everyone will just blame it on LIBERALS, instead of looking in the political mirror.