Want to work up to 1000yd...need build advice on the reasonable for the rifle

[LRRPF52]

If I was down closer to sea level, I would lean more on my 22" fluted Lilja barrel with the higher BC projectiles if I was going for 1000yds on a regular basis.

With 20-24" barrels, the 123gr Scenar stays supersonic at sea level to 1000yds even with 2500fps mv, but your wind is 2.8 mils at 10mph full value.

At 2600fps, your wind drift is 2.7 mils, 1200fps.

If I shoot the same 123gr Scenar bullet from my 22" .260 Rem, my wind drift drops down to 2.2-2.3 mils, very flat.

Switch to 130gr VLD and wind drops to 2.1 mils.

[Klem]

That's all good 52 but sounds like the OP is closer to sea level so your photos are just a pipe dream.

You really have to push the envelope in either barrel length and/or altitude to get those results. Meanwhile, a short-barrel Creedmore will eat that and the wind all day long.

[NugginFutz]

That's all good 52 but sounds like the OP is closer to sea level so your photos are just a pipe dream.

You really have to push the envelope in either barrel length and/or altitude to get those results. Meanwhile, a short-barrel Creedmore will eat that and the wind all day long.

No doubt a 6.x Creedmore will out run the Grendel, Klem. For that matter, a 7mm Mag will outrun any Creedmore, and eat the wind will it's doing so.

The OP is asking about optimizing his 6.5G. Suggesting that he jack up the windshield wipers and bolt in faster car is not really answering his question.

[Klem]

To be clear, the OP wants advice on shooting the Grendel at 1,000 at low altitudes. 55 and I are advising him it is wiser to choose a better calibre. If he still wants to stick with the Grendel, sure, get a long heavy barrel or shoot it on the moon.

[grayfox]

After all, it's the OP's money and time, there are 2 options presented here.
AFAIC I would opt for the Creed and keep the Grr down to 6-700 yds and be plenty happy. And I actually have both and used the Creed for the 1000 yds. Smiles on face when I hit. Wind calls were tough at 1000.

But if he wants to Grendel-challenge the steel at 1K, go for it..... get the looooong barrel and the goooood optics and shoot away! I also still think you don't get that much for the inches >24, but again that's just me.

[bob4432]

I have come to the conclusion that a 16" Grendel, @ 1000yds @ 1600-1650ASL is just not really feasable (should have listened to the horde a bit earlier, but sometimes you have to learn even though people are already telling you what you are going to learn, but it will get me onto the road of a light recoil, decent distance shooting 16" rifle. After I get things ironed out, and learn what a lot of you already know, I will probably do a 6.5Creedmoor later for cross-pollination - same bullets (to a point), same primers, etc.

Question for optic - MRAD or MOA? What says the hoard? Should I stay around a $500 optic for this Grendel to get me into the 500-700 (optically)? Then do I offset better glass vs power? I could search all night, but what are you guys running in the optics department for those that are running a a 16" Grendel (more I have read, seems this is a bit of a strange setup just 16" for a 500-700yd Grendel, but the ballistic calculators show the numbers do work out. Can I ask anybody that is in the ~1600-1700ASL running a 16" running for optics?

Appreciate everything you guys have offered me in advice, hope to repay sooner rather than later.

Are the Faxon, BA & Green Mountain Barrels ~1MOA out to say 500-700yds? Or are the saying (BA) they are sub MOA just for the first 100yds? And then then things spread out?

I am kind of thinking I should get into reloading before spending $1500+ on an optic - not sure what is more important - have 5+ calibers, so plenty of calibers to keep the overall cost down and a decent amount of cross-pollinization, so even more savings. What says the horde?

Plan on building the Grendel upper / lower via a 80% lower + white upper, then have a friend anodize them for me (Aerospace Machine shop + 07/02FFL), so all is legal unless something got changes and I have to have anodizer send it to a local FFL?

Does my thought process sound like a good plan, considering I am wanting to stay @ 16" for the 6.5Grendel and am willing to deal with what that brings with it? Personally don't want a 24" barreled rifle, at least not unless I went bolt action and even then, probably stay 22" Max (weird quirk I guess I have), even when I move to the 6.5Creedmoor, plan on 22" Max, but a few nights plugging numbers into a ballistics calculator before that is figured out.

Thanks in advance for your assistance and need to get some sleep....
Bob

[biodsl]

Does my thought process sound like a good plan, considering I am wanting to stay @ 16" for the 6.5Grendel and am willing to deal with what that brings with it? Personally don't want a 24" barreled rifle, at least not unless I went bolt action and even then, probably stay 22" Max (weird quirk I guess I have), even when I move to the 6.5Creedmoor, plan on 22" Max, but a few night plugging numbers into a ballistics calculator before that is figured out.

Thanks in advance for your assistance,
Bob

And now to completely muddy the waters...Ironically, Bob, it's the Creedmoor that would get you to 1000 yards with a 16" barrel. Buy this cheap thing in 6.5 Creedmoor, repair or replace the stock and use factory Hornady 147gr ELD-M. 1.2 mach at 1,000 yards at sea level. Discontinued but still available, I just bought one for $359.
https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-ac...avy-barrel

Here's an article that will give you an idea of velocities at different barrel lengths.
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-cre...creedmoor/

With all due respect, you're probably over thinking this. I'd encourage you to get one of the 16" group buy barrels. They're an incredible buy. Build a rifle around it. Shoot it. Have some fun. If it doesn't perform to your satisfaction take the $60 hit and sell it. Try a different barrel.

[grayfox]

You can get uppers and lowers (sometimes a blem) for $49-69 that are serviceable. The things that cost you and that are also crucial to accuracy are the barrel, the trigger, the optic. Add in a cantilever mount for ~100. Like bd says, get some pieces and concentrate on the build, shoot and have some fun, work on accuracy.
As for optics, you can go anywhere from $250-1000, there are again, serviceable units around $300 like some of the newer vortex, some athlons, some nikons... redfield maybe (don't have any of these). Depending on your eyes a variable up to about 12x-16x should work. Go to a cabelas or local lgs and try some out for glass clarity and other features you like.
Online, amazon, opticsplanet, SWFA, natchezss, several places to look for a deal you like. OpticsPlanet has a veteran discount if you call them.
As for mil or moa, what are you used to using? preference here plays a role.

edit: one other thing..... the 80% lowers imo are for the really experienced, not for the first time. One slip and its fishbait. or something on the bottom isn't quite super smooth and it looks nice but won't fire... 1000 things can go wrong you never thought about. Plus there's the cost of the jig and the bits...

[Gusmeister]

Gotta go with Biod on this one. You are probably over thinking the entire process (which is exactly the way I do it so I am not saying it is bad. Just consuming).

I've seen people hit steel all day at 500 yards with $200 scopes. There is always a difference between what you can get away with and what would be considered good practices. The more time you spend looking into a scope the more you will appreciate good glass. I was out at the range with a friend a few weeks ago who never shot anything past 200 yards. After a couple hours he aced 500-600 yards with his Grendel. He also brought his 14.5" 5.56 with 62 gr mil spec ammo and a $150 on sale scope. Once he got the range he could easily nail steel out to 400 yards. Mind you, this is light years away from dialing in the range/conditions and making first round hits but it is a ton of fun and it still is hitting.

MRAD or MOA? It all works.

Have fun.

[bob4432]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I definitely overthink things, it is why it takes me forever to get things done .

I had thought about going straight to a 6.5C first, but I(!) need to learn to shoot at distance and in my head, I would just be wasting $$ on ammo since I wouldn't have the necessary knowledge to anything near accurate at that distance. I do like that

As far as finishing an 80%, I already have the parts, but maybe I will buy some well respected 80% lowers and send then to friend mentioned above as he has made thousands of them (understand their FFL info would have to go on the side and the lowers would have to go to a FFL, not a problem) and being AS9100 and ISO9100 Certified, they machine correctly as most of their machining is somewhere in the aerospace world, he probably had a program already where he could bolt in a 80% lower and finish it off as I think they are are running at least 4axis machines.

According to the ballistic calculators I seem to be very safe @ 600yds w/ a 16"brl, maybe I will start there and crawl before I walk.

Again, thanks for all the feedback.

Bob

Thanks for the link on the Remington - covers a lot of bases....

[LR1955]

I have come to the conclusion that a 16" Grendel, @ 1000yds @ 1600-1650ASL is just not really feasable (should have listened to the horde a bit earlier, but sometimes you have to learn even though people are already telling you what you are going to learn, but it will get me onto the road of a light recoil, decent distance shooting 16" rifle. After I get things ironed out, and learn what a lot of you already know, I will probably do a 6.5Creedmoor later for cross-pollination - same bullets (to a point), same primers, etc.

Question for optic - MRAD or MOA? What says the hoard? Should I stay around a $500 optic for this Grendel to get me into the 500-700 (optically)? Then do I offset better glass vs power? I could search all night, but what are you guys running in the optics department for those that are running a a 16" Grendel (more I have read, seems this is a bit of a strange setup just 16" for a 500-700yd Grendel, but the ballistic calculators show the numbers do work out. Can I ask anybody that is in the ~1600-1700ASL running a 16" running for optics?

Appreciate everything you guys have offered me in advice, hope to repay sooner rather than later.

Are the Faxon, BA & Green Mountain Barrels ~1MOA out to say 500-700yds? Or are the saying (BA) they are sub MOA just for the first 100yds? And then then things spread out?

I am kind of thinking I should get into reloading before spending $1500+ on an optic - not sure what is more important - have 5+ calibers, so plenty of calibers to keep the overall cost down and a decent amount of cross-pollinization, so even more savings. What says the horde?

Plan on building the Grendel upper / lower via a 80% lower + white upper, then have a friend anodize them for me (Aerospace Machine shop + 07/03FFL), so all is legal unless something got changes and I have to have anodizer send it to a local FFL?

Does my thought process sound like a good plan, considering I am wanting to stay @ 16" for the 6.5Grendel and am willing to deal with what that brings with it? Personally don't want a 24" barreled rifle, at least not unless I went bolt action and even then, probably stay 22" Max (weird quirk I guess I have), even when I move to the 6.5Creedmoor, plan on 22" Max, but a few nights plugging numbers into a ballistics calculator before that is figured out.

Thanks in advance for your assistance and need to get some sleep....
Bob

Bob:

You need to look through the Optics forum. Your question about optics and cost has been asked at least three times and the general question about magnification, MOA vs Mil, reticle patterns, etc has been asked at least ten times. You won't get the same answer ten times but you will be able to narrow your search for an optic down to two or three models. Get the optic that you are assured will work for your purpose. You won't find a 'General Purpose' optic that is good for everything so think about your use before buying.

For an optic, if it is a fixed magnification look at something with a 10 or 16X. If variable -- something with 10 and up to 20 or 24X.

There is no correlation between optic and barrel length. There is a correlation between optic quality and cost. The higher the quality, the higher the cost. $500.00 is going cheap.

You are right about barrel cost and quality and performance. Cheap barrels can be able to produce sub minute performance at 100 yards but that doesn't mean they will do the same past that range. Probably not so good at 300 and pretty bad past 300.

I am sure you can get the velocity you need for supersonic speeds at 700 yards with a 16 inch barrel. Get a cheap barrel and take the chance on its performance. Pretty simple. More important than the lower by far. Your lower won't play a huge role in the accuracy of your upper. Get one that fits and get a good trigger installed.

It will cost you a good $1500.00 to get completely set up handloading. With the price of the Hornady Grendel loadings of about .$80 per shot, it is the same cost as reloading and guys will normally buy once fired brass.

Finally, ballistics calculators these days are very accurate once you plug in very accurate numbers. Until you chronograph your ammo, you are not plugging in accurate numbers. Sometimes not even close to factory data.

LR55

[LRRPF52]

I have come to the conclusion that a 16" Grendel, @ 1000yds @ 1600-1650ASL is just not really feasable (should have listened to the horde a bit earlier, but sometimes you have to learn even though people are already telling you what you are going to learn, but it will get me onto the road of a light recoil, decent distance shooting 16" rifle. After I get things ironed out, and learn what a lot of you already know, I will probably do a 6.5Creedmoor later for cross-pollination - same bullets (to a point), same primers, etc.

Question for optic - MRAD or MOA? What says the hoard? Should I stay around a $500 optic for this Grendel to get me into the 500-700 (optically)? Then do I offset better glass vs power? I could search all night, but what are you guys running in the optics department for those that are running a a 16" Grendel (more I have read, seems this is a bit of a strange setup just 16" for a 500-700yd Grendel, but the ballistic calculators show the numbers do work out. Can I ask anybody that is in the ~1600-1700ASL running a 16" running for optics?

Appreciate everything you guys have offered me in advice, hope to repay sooner rather than later.

Are the Faxon, BA & Green Mountain Barrels ~1MOA out to say 500-700yds? Or are the saying (BA) they are sub MOA just for the first 100yds? And then then things spread out?

I am kind of thinking I should get into reloading before spending $1500+ on an optic - not sure what is more important - have 5+ calibers, so plenty of calibers to keep the overall cost down and a decent amount of cross-pollinization, so even more savings. What says the horde?

Plan on building the Grendel upper / lower via a 80% lower + white upper, then have a friend anodize them for me (Aerospace Machine shop + 07/03FFL), so all is legal unless something got changes and I have to have anodizer send it to a local FFL?

Does my thought process sound like a good plan, considering I am wanting to stay @ 16" for the 6.5Grendel and am willing to deal with what that brings with it? Personally don't want a 24" barreled rifle, at least not unless I went bolt action and even then, probably stay 22" Max (weird quirk I guess I have), even when I move to the 6.5Creedmoor, plan on 22" Max, but a few nights plugging numbers into a ballistics calculator before that is figured out.

Thanks in advance for your assistance and need to get some sleep....
Bob

Have you tried any of the higher BC bullets, like 130gr ELD-M, or 130gr Berger?

Using G7 drag profile, at 2350fps, I'm seeing supersonic reach to 1075yds in your conditions. Wind drift is 2.7 mils at 1000yds in 10mph full value. It's like a 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel .308 Winchester, which has pretty low hit probability at 1000yds in those conditions.

[bob4432]

Bob:

You need to look through the Optics forum. Your question about optics and cost has been asked at least three times and the general question about magnification, MOA vs Mil, reticle patterns, etc has been asked at least ten times. You won't get the same answer ten times but you will be able to narrow your search for an optic down to two or three models. Get the optic that you are assured will work for your purpose. You won't find a 'General Purpose' optic that is good for everything so think about your use before buying.

For an optic, if it is a fixed magnification look at something with a 10 or 16X. If variable -- something with 10 and up to 20 or 24X.

There is no correlation between optic and barrel length. There is a correlation between optic quality and cost. The higher the quality, the higher the cost. $500.00 is going cheap.

Thanks, honestly, I didn't even know that sub-forum existed, but makes perfect sense . Also the rest of your post makes good sense.

[bob4432]

Bob:

You need to look through the Optics forum. Your question about optics and cost has been asked at least three times and the general question about magnification, MOA vs Mil, reticle patterns, etc has been asked at least ten times. You won't get the same answer ten times but you will be able to narrow your search for an optic down to two or three models. Get the optic that you are assured will work for your purpose. You won't find a 'General Purpose' optic that is good for everything so think about your use before buying.

For an optic, if it is a fixed magnification look at something with a 10 or 16X. If variable -- something with 10 and up to 20 or 24X.

There is no correlation between optic and barrel length. There is a correlation between optic quality and cost. The higher the quality, the higher the cost. $500.00 is going cheap.

Thanks, honestly, I didn't even know that sub-forum existed, but makes perfect sense , but I assume you know that.

[bob4432]

Thanks, honestly, I didn't even know that sub-forum existed, but makes perfect sense . Also the rest of your post makes good sense.

Thanks, honestly, I didn't even know that sub-forum existed, but makes perfect sense , but I assume you know that.

Surprised these 2 responses were 4Min apart, they literally seemed back-to-back...

[bob4432]

Have you tried any of the higher BC bullets, like 130gr ELD-M, or 130gr Berger?

Using G7 drag profile, at 2350fps, I'm seeing supersonic reach to 1075yds in your conditions. Wind drift is 2.7 mils at 1000yds in 10mph full value. It's like a 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel .308 Winchester, which has pretty low hit probability at 1000yds in those conditions.

Rifle is not done yet, need a barrel and optic (will be using LaRue triggers - being on a budget, how can I not use them?) and I do not reload yet, but I appreciate the suggestions. Once reloading equipment acquired available and I get reloading setup setup and get some confidence under my belt, I will be trying A LOT of stuff . Will have a lot of LC5.56 & PPU brass on hand, sadly at this time, I am going off Google Earth for the elevations for where I will be shooting the most of the time.


-----

I do have a question for the horde that is OFF TOPIC - this is just a general question that did not make sense to me and I am hoping somebody can explain the rationale behind a comment I recently read - I was reading about the 6.5x47Lapua vs 6.5Creedmoor. The righter stated that he felt that the 6.5x47Lapua was more accurate than the 6.5Creedmoor because of the brass, and he alluded that the 6.5x47Lapua was more accurate because of the brass. This does not make sense to me because you can get 6.5Creedmoor in brass from Lapua. I have not studied the brass designs but is this author stating that the could be the reason? I believe 6.5Creedmoor was first made by Hornady, so would Lapua make their 6.5Creedmoor brass just a bit inferior in some way - possibly at the chemical level? Also, I need to add that these were match quality firearms we are talking about. As I learn, the only thing that would really stand out would be the cambering, but being these were the highest quality (if memory servers me) Krieger Barrels, or possible Lilja, Shilen? (not talking about B-Tac from Brownells or the $200 BA, Faxon, etc). These rifles were the type that are done by hand, chambered so the bolt is known to the barrel which is known to the ammo maker (possibly even firearms that that Lapua and Hornady would use in competition - did I just answer my own question - a Hornady firearm is going to use Hornady ammo, and therefore Hornady brass...I don't know but I am at a loss for an answer unless that was it). If anybody could shed any light on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Bob

[A5BLASTER]

Rifle is not done yet, need a barrel and optic (will be using LaRue triggers - being on a budget, how can I not use them?) and I do not reload yet, but I appreciate the suggestions. Once reloading equipment acquired available and I get reloading setup setup and get some confidence under my belt, I will be trying A LOT of stuff . Will have a lot of LC5.56 & PPU brass on hand, sadly at this time, I am going off Google Earth for the elevations for where I will be shooting the most of the time.


-----

I do have a question for the horde that is OFF TOPIC - this is just a general question that did not make sense to me and I am hoping somebody can explain the rationale behind a comment I recently read - I was reading about the 6.5x47Lapua vs 6.5Creedmoor. The righter stated that he felt that the 6.5x47Lapua was more accurate than the 6.5Creedmoor because of the brass, and he alluded that the 6.5x47Lapua was more accurate because of the brass. This does not make sense to me because you can get 6.5Creedmoor in brass from Lapua. I have not studied the brass designs but is this author stating that the could be the reason? I believe 6.5Creedmoor was first made by Hornady, so would Lapua make their 6.5Creedmoor brass just a bit inferior in some way - possibly at the chemical level? Also, I need to add that these were match quality firearms we are talking about. As I learn, the only thing that would really stand out would be the cambering, but being these were the highest quality (if memory servers me) Krieger Barrels, or possible Lilja, Shilen? (not talking about B-Tac from Brownells or the $200 BA, Faxon, etc). These rifles were the type that are done by hand, chambered so the bolt is known to the barrel which is known to the ammo maker (possibly even firearms that that Lapua and Hornady would use in competition - did I just answer my own question - a Hornady firearm is going to use Hornady ammo, and therefore Hornady brass...I don't know but I am at a loss for an answer unless that was it). If anybody could shed any light on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Bob

I know the thread your talking about have read it several time's.

If you look at the time line of that thread you can start to realise when he stated that 6.5 creedmoor only came in large primer brass and not made by lapua.

Now both calibers come in small rifle primer lapua brass, so it's a wash from that point of view.

If I had to build a rifle between those 2 calibers, I would go lapua, lil less case capacity aka lil less felt recoil for my torn up shoulder. That reason alone is what sold me on the grendel.


Edit to add- If you have a smart phone it should have a gps function that will give you your exact elevation, but Google earth should be very close as well.

[LR1955]

Rifle is not done yet, need a barrel and optic (will be using LaRue triggers - being on a budget, how can I not use them?) and I do not reload yet, but I appreciate the suggestions. Once reloading equipment acquired available and I get reloading setup setup and get some confidence under my belt, I will be trying A LOT of stuff . Will have a lot of LC5.56 & PPU brass on hand, sadly at this time, I am going off Google Earth for the elevations for where I will be shooting the most of the time.


-----

I do have a question for the horde that is OFF TOPIC - this is just a general question that did not make sense to me and I am hoping somebody can explain the rationale behind a comment I recently read - I was reading about the 6.5x47Lapua vs 6.5Creedmoor. The righter stated that he felt that the 6.5x47Lapua was more accurate than the 6.5Creedmoor because of the brass, and he alluded that the 6.5x47Lapua was more accurate because of the brass. This does not make sense to me because you can get 6.5Creedmoor in brass from Lapua. I have not studied the brass designs but is this author stating that the could be the reason? I believe 6.5Creedmoor was first made by Hornady, so would Lapua make their 6.5Creedmoor brass just a bit inferior in some way - possibly at the chemical level? Also, I need to add that these were match quality firearms we are talking about. As I learn, the only thing that would really stand out would be the cambering, but being these were the highest quality (if memory servers me) Krieger Barrels, or possible Lilja, Shilen? (not talking about B-Tac from Brownells or the $200 BA, Faxon, etc). These rifles were the type that are done by hand, chambered so the bolt is known to the barrel which is known to the ammo maker (possibly even firearms that that Lapua and Hornady would use in competition - did I just answer my own question - a Hornady firearm is going to use Hornady ammo, and therefore Hornady brass...I don't know but I am at a loss for an answer unless that was it). If anybody could shed any light on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Bob

Bob:

Arguments over the 6.5 X 47 vs 6.5 Creedmoor vs the .260, and even the 6.5 / 08 are as useful as arguing over the viability of the 5.56 as a service round. Performance will be identical given a quality rifle and quality shooter. Differences in velocity are there but are not so great that one would be better than the others. Lapua brass has a reputation for being the best quality made. Hornady brass doesn't last as long which means it probably isn't as good. I am not sure how that plays into performance, though.

The 6.5 X 47 uses a small rifle primer and the Hornady brass a large primer. That has the potential of making a difference because the small primed brass can take more pressure without blowing a primer or ruining the brass. Many people will also say that a small primer pocket in the .308 size cases does give more consistency than large primer cases. I believe it.

I am not sure what you are getting at when it comes to rifles and the brass they use. A custom rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor takes 6.5 Creedmoor brass. Doesn't matter if the brass is made by Lake City or Lapua. Normally what does matter is the bullet a guy uses. Chambers like the 6.5 PRC are throated for that 143 grain bullet that Sticks mentions. Not that they won't take other bullet types and probably shoot them just as well. Just that the throat is cut in length and probably tapered for that specific bullet. Generally the throat is long enough that the bullet seats in the brass so that the boattail is just below the neck. Probably cut so when chambered, the ogive of the bullet is just off the lands. The cartridge must also fit a magazine.

Anyway, that is a pretty basic answer.

LR55

[grayfox]

Not only the gps function on your smartphone but there are apps that give you elevations... I got one and use it, works well.
Just "calibrate" it every once in a while with the gps/ known elev's and you're good to go. Free apps by the way.

[Sticks]

I'd thought LR55 would have said that brass makes an accuracy difference when you are looking for that last .1 MOA to a perfect single hole group.

Barrel, bullet, powder, primer, action, optics, mounts, chassis, trigger, and last but most importantly....the person pulling the trigger is where the accuracy is at in a rifle.