Hi guys, I am new to this whole world of long range shooting and 6.5G. I am looking at buying a Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 Ill. Ret. Scope for my new Grendel. Gun will primarily be used for hunting deer, hogs and coyotes in SC. It will have a 20" SS Satern Barrell and usually hunting deer will be under 200 yards, hogs and coyotes, could be out to 500 on farmers fields. However, I would like to have the capabillity of doing some long range shooting just for fun without having to switch out optics. So, should I get the Mil or MOA reticle or does it matter?? I was practicing with a Mil reticle on a simulator and have learned already how to calculate distance by the size of the target. Just want to know before I spend another $1k on scope and mount.
Thanks,
Kevin
I personally prefer MOA since the use is second nature without consciously thinking about it, I have to calculate mils. The advantage to mil is that they are useful for optical range finding. Again I personally use a laser range finder for that so don't need the mil dot. Others will point out that you can use mil dots even when my laser range finder is broken or has dead batteries. They are correct but it hasn't happened to me in the 15 years I've been using laser range finders.
Bob
Thanks Bob,
I also just read where MOA at 100 yds = 1.047 inches
and MIl at 100 yards = .10yards or 3.6 inches. I think MOA will be easier however I may need to buy a new range finder...LOL I recently purchesed one hopefully this one will last longer.
Thanks again,
Hi LF,
A lot of military guys like the mil scopes because that's what they learned on. If you do any shooting where ranges are in meters, it helps.
Just be sure that you get a matched turret and reticle, it makes things a lot easier. A lot of scopes have mil dot reticles with MOA turrets.
I think you'll like the Vortex. I have the 6-24 and have been very happy with it. I'm
RR
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Until the last couple of years, I used scopes with moa adjustments. Made the switch to mils, and have no regrets. Either will work.
Like RangerRick mentioned, just be sure to get turrets that match the reticle.
I prefer first focal plane so that ranging and holdovers are effective regardless of what power the scope is set on. This is useful in hunting when scope isn't dialed up to highest power, such as during low light. However, if the scope is to be used a lot at its lowest power, the reticle will appear somewhat small.
Drifter
I was raised on Mil dots with MOA turrets, which makes no sense at all. Since I was used to calling in artillery and mortar fire with Mils, and making long-range rifle corrections with Mil reticles, I am used to Mil reticles. Since European scope makers offer military optics with Mil/Mil, and they are the optics by which others are judged, the popularity of the S&B PMII has had a large influence on the Mil/Mil approach, and that it what I prefer.
I have also benefited from measuring all my targets in cm or mm for use with Mils, because you have one math function to perform for range estimation...no conversions and crazy tables to reference.
Target dimensions in mm/TGT dimensions in Mils = Range in meters
Example:
450mm (45cm) wide silhouette / .5 Mils (read from one Mil hash on one shoulder to .5 Mils to the other shoulder) = 900
There are similar formulas for MOA and inches, which many in the US prefer. I don't like how 1 MOA is 1.047" at 100yds and all those loose ends. I like how .1 Mil is 1cm at 100m, and 1 Mil is 1m at 1000m.
For MOA reticles, it is:
TGT size in inches / TGT size in MOA x 100 = range in yards
Example:
12" steel plate / 2.7 MOA read size in scope x 100 = 444yds
The funny thing is that all US commerce is supposed to be conducted in the metric system except gold which is in Troy ounces. This has been true since the 1790's but we hold on to what we are familiar with and most people don't even know that we made the conversion back then, they think it is some time in the distant future we will change.
You can ignore the 1.047" while using MOA and just use 1"@100 yards, 2"@200 and so on for practical application of the MOA system. Since I know all the target faces, wind values, and wild game dimensions in MOA it is what I am comfortable with. Also our US service rifles are calibrated in MOA with 1, or 1/2, or 1/4 MOA sight clicks. So if you are a high power competitor, and switch back and forth between service rifle, match rifle and any/any rifle the only way to stay consistent is MOA. And believe me, you don't want to be trying to keep up with switching winds and two systems in your head, you will get the wrong one under stress.
Bob
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Dang Bob, the 1790's!!! Wow I knew you were old, but not that old! Just kidding, we know you really meant the 1970's.LOL;D
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01-11-2012, 02:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 02:56 PM by Drifter.)
The mil system is not metric, but rather an angular unit of measure. The assumption to the contrary is understandable though, considering that metric units in a linear sense are often mentioned in association. (The system is not imperial either.)
In a practical sense, neither metric nor imperial linear measurements matter much in shooting with a mil system. If hits or holes from previous shots can be spotted through the scope, it's easy to measure the distance between POI and POA through the scope, then adjust accordingly by either adjusting hold or dialing the turret(s), or a combination of both. (The same could be said for a moa system.)
If you like to physically measure a target for distance between POI and POA when sighting in and / or fine-tuning a zero, no doubt that measuring in centimeters for close linear association with 0.1-mil clicks is helpful. (Since metric measuring tools seem hard to find in the USA, an appropriate app can be easily downloaded to a smart phone.)
Ballistic programs can provide trajectory data in mils in reference to yardage so that there's no math to compute. As a practical example for a Grendel rifle used for both target shooting and hunting, let's assume a traditional 200-yard hunting zero with a 4.3 mil drop at 600 yards. When target shooting, dialing up 43 clicks isn't an issue. But for hunting, where as a quick shot might be needed for a coyote at 600 yards, it would be easy to get lost in dialing up that much. Thus, dialing up 3 clicks and holding on the 4-mil mark of the reticle would serve the same effect. If necessary, an approximate hold between the 4 and 4.5 mil marks would also work (assuming the reticle has half mil marks).
I'm not trying to be overly persuasive towards anyone regarding mil versus moa. I'm merely trying to point out that the mil system is not really complicated (and not really metric), and is a relatively easy transition to make.
For whatever it's worth, I think there is a far greater preference for mil/mil systems (regarding reticle and turrets) when it comes to tactical scopes. I expect that the selection of mil/mil scopes will continue to grow (supply & demand), as will offerings with reticles in the first focal plane.
Of course, it all boils down to making accurate shots, and whichever system works for someone wouldn't be any better or worse with a different system. But a system with matching reticle and turrets, whether mil/mil or moa/moa, makes everything much easier.
(The argument for a moa system for someone who also competes with irons is certainly valid, and one that I hadn't previously considered.)
Drifter
I like to use the mil-dot scopes for reasons similar to those laid out by drifter, except that I'm a little more simple-minded. Those marks make for easy reference when you know the holdover and windage. The mil-dot scopes can be had for a lot less money than others with even more useful markings, so I tend to go with them.
Fiscal considerations all too frequently color what we think is the way to go!
Variable Wrote:Dang Bob, the 1790's!!! Wow I knew you were old, but not that old! Just kidding, we know you really meant the 1970's.LOL;D
No, I really meant 1790's, that is when Thomas Jefferson brought back the standard Meter from France, a gold bar, which has served as our standard of length ever since. I've seen it with my own eyes at the National Bureau of Standards, now called NIST. There is a very convoluted and long history of not converting to metric. http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dates.htm
Drifter Wrote:The mil system is not metric, but rather an angular unit of measure. The assumption to the contrary is understandable though, considering that metric units in a linear sense are often mentioned in association. (The system is not imperial either.)
Yes, good point, both Mil and MOA are simply ways to divide a circle into parts. 1 MOA = 1/21,600th of a cirlce, 1 Mil = 1/6,283rd of a cirlce rounded to 1/6,400 by the Army. But there are two Mil standards, one in use by the Army and one in use by the USMC. The Army Mil, the ones that look round = 3.375 MOA and the USMC Mil, the ones that look like a football = 3.438 MOA.
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/TruthMilDots.htm
In the end, it doesn't matter much learn one and use it. For me though I do so many things in MOA that I'll stick with that.
Bob
For hunting I actually prefer 1/3 MOA scope turrents because I can get 0-1000 yards on one revolution of the Turrents which greatly reduces the chance of getting lost through the transition of a complete revolution. The Huskemaw 5-20 is what sits on my 6.5 STW. http://www.longrangehunting.com/store/us...scope.html
Bob
Leadfarmer Wrote:I was practicing with a Mil reticle on a simulator
Hi, do you have a link for this simulator. I'm interested to practice as well.
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stokesrj Wrote:Yes, good point, both Mil and MOA are simply ways to divide a circle into parts. 1 MOA = 1/21,600th of a cirlce, 1 Mil = 1/6,283rd of a cirlce rounded to 1/6,400 by the Army. But there are two Mil standards, one in use by the Army and one in use by the USMC. The Army Mil, the ones that look round = 3.375 MOA and the USMC Mil, the ones that look like a football = 3.438 MOA.
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/TruthMilDots.htm
In the end, it doesn't matter much learn one and use it. For me though I do so many things in MOA that I'll stick with that.
Bob
Wow, Bob, you pulled that one from thin air! Thats the site where I first learned how to use MilDots, and where I started shooting long range! Boomershoot is a great experience every year!
We'd love to have you come up!
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Varoum Wrote:Hi, do you have a link for this simulator. I'm interested to practice as well.
Shooter Ready is pretty good: http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html
Anybody know a better one?
RR
bwaites Wrote:Wow, Bob, you pulled that one from thin air! Thats the site where I first learned how to use MilDots, and where I started shooting long range! Boomershoot is a great experience every year!
We'd love to have you come up!
I bookmarked it from a long time ago, probably a conversation we were having back then. I would like to come out to Boomershoot some time. Probably not this year, I'm fully scheduled trying to finish out my Distinguished Rifleman badge. I'll be shooting the OBR in April, Eastern Creedmoor in May, the Nationals in August and the Western Creedmoor in November. And I'm squeezing a September archery elk hunt in there too.
Bob
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Western Creedmoor is at Ben Avery in Phoenix, still?
OBR? Don't recognize that one.
Boomershoot is just a great time, weather often plays havoc, but then we think of the guys in 'Stan and it seems pretty nice!
Any time you think you can make, let us know! It's the last weekend in April this year.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
RangerRick Wrote:Shooter Ready is pretty good: http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html
Anybody know a better one?
RR
Thats pretty cool!
Be cool to load your own rifles ballistics in and go
bwaites Wrote:Western Creedmoor is at Ben Avery in Phoenix, still?
OBR? Don't recognize that one.
Boomershoot is just a great time, weather often plays havoc, but then we think of the guys in 'Stan and it seems pretty nice!
Any time you think you can make, let us know! It's the last weekend in April this year.
Yes, my son lives near Ben Avery. OBR is Orange Blossum Regional, It's a pretty big match that attracts some of the nations top shooters. The All Guard team is holding a clinic there this year. I't near Kennedy Space Center in Palm Bay.
Bob
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