M-16 tribute accuracy

[Randy99CL]

Planning my next build and I'd like to do an M-16 tribute gun in .223 Wylde. Something like the one Brownells or BCA sell but I will build my own from parts (e.g. better barrel and trigger).

I want the standard handguard but wonder how much it hurts the accuracy compared to a free-floater.
I know that some of you are/were military marksmen. How tough is it to get varmint-rifle accuracy with the mil-spec handguard and gas block?
I'd like something less-than-moa accuracy with a Faxon match barrel, good trigger and handloads.

Edit: And I like the removable carry handle the BCA gun comes with. Rail underneath so I could mount a scope when wanted and reinstall the handle for looks.

[biodsl]

White Oak Armament sells a free-float tube that takes the A2 style hand guards. Not cheap but not more expensive than many rails. Allows you to sling up tight without affecting POI.

https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/up...e-kit.html

[Caser]

The only 20" match barrels are heavy profile, and fluted. That limits how close you can get to the M16 look.

Which M16?

If you want an accurate service rifle look, go to compass lake or white oak. It's what they do.

[Randy99CL]

Thanks for the responses.

I've wanted to build a 20" .223 for a while. For plinking, steel targets and varmints with cheap bulk ammo and good handloads.
When I saw the Brownells and BCA M16 copies I realized I like that look. I'm a Vietnam Era veteran ('73-'79) but never got to fire an M-16 while in the Navy.

So I want to build an AR that has the look but with decent components for accuracy. Function is more important than style so a lightweight fluted Faxon barrel will be great. I don't care that it won't look exactly right. I have that barrel in Grrr and it looks cool.
Same with the removable carry handle. Doesn't look exactly right but the gun will be much more functional with a scope when I take the handle off.

That White Oak handguard kit is perfect, thanks for the link! Exactly what I need.
I see they make accurate uppers but they cost $900, way too much for me.

[LRRPF52]

I've been a big fan/student of the AR15 family since I was a kid in the 1970s. At that time, that was all there was that we ever saw, in addition to the Colt Commandos.

Along the way, I've learned about a whole assortment of variations in both production and prototypes that you don't normally see.

I've built several retro ARs as well, with a focus on purism externally, but performance internally.

Here are my Colt 727 and Colt 605 clones:



The 605 was the first carbine production model, made in very limited numbers. It was supposed to be an Infantry Leader's carbine, basically a rifle with a 15" barrel and everything else the same. Since it had 15" barrel + RLGS, they had reliability issues with them in cold weather. Extending the barrel even .75" seems to take care of the dwell time, but a lot of people open up their gas ports to over .100", whereas a normal rifle port is .0935".

I've been thinking about converting the 605 to 6.5 Grendel, and I have another 605B in pieces but not complete, using an 80% lower to get the markings and 4-way fire control group represented.

The US Navy had a lot of 602s and 604s, which were both slick side (no forward assist). The USAF specifically demanded that their M16s not have any forward assist, like the original production models, whereas the US Army insisted on a forward assist.




One thing that really sticks out with the early AR15 military rifles is how lightweight and handy they are. Once you start putting in heavy barrels, they become much more stout. Interestingly enough, the prototypes had rather large barrel diameters under the handguards, but were fluted, and then had very thin fore ends in front of the FSB.




The most popular retro clone build is the Colt 603 (M16A1), with forward assist, 20" pencil barrel, triangular handguards, one of the Type D or E buttstocks, a full fence lower receiver (but nit later A2), the original pistol grip, etc.

[StoneHendge]

Thanks for the responses.

I've wanted to build a 20" .223 for a while. For plinking, steel targets and varmints with cheap bulk ammo and good handloads.
When I saw the Brownells and BCA M16 copies I realized I like that look. I'm a Vietnam Era veteran ('73-'79) but never got to fire an M-16 while in the Navy.

So I want to build an AR that has the look but with decent components for accuracy. Function is more important than style so a lightweight fluted Faxon barrel will be great. I don't care that it won't look exactly right. I have that barrel in Grrr and it looks cool.
Same with the removable carry handle. Doesn't look exactly right but the gun will be much more functional with a scope when I take the handle off.

That White Oak handguard kit is perfect, thanks for the link! Exactly what I need.
I see they make accurate uppers but they cost $900, way too much for me.

If your looking for a good 20" barrel:

https://truesportingarmsllc.com/product/...lr-12-blk/

One word of warning. Somehow, mine ended up being 1:9 twist. Couldn't get it to shoot 77s for crap. Was really pissed then checked the twist. But I'm shooting 55 gr NBTVs at 1/2 MOA at 3150 out to 550 and it shoots Norma TAC 223 which LAX sells for 30¢ / round (and is good brass) around 1.5 MOA at 3050 with SD of 12. It can usually manage 7-8 of 10 on 10"er at 550 with the Norma if the wind isn't too screwy. The flare profile is cool. I think it's .75 behind gas block, tapers to 0.625 in front and then "flares" back to .75 at the muzzle to blend with a brake. They've got a few other 556s too. Upper tier barrels at rack prices.

[bj139]

Here is a mock dissipator upper I recently bought from Palmetto State Armory.
It has a mid length gas block under the handguard for reliability.
It was one of their daily specials and it went out of stock in one day.
It has the same sight radius as the 20" AR-15.
It looks fairly good with the exception of the stainless barrel.

[NugginFutz]

Randy,

If you want consistent sub-moa accuracy from a 20" barrel, free float is about the only way it will happen. Even with bull barrels, pressures on the muzzle can cause deflection (usually upward) to the bullet path.

My 22" bull barreled BHW has has a free-floated bull barrel. My cheesy Chinese bipod was giving me grief, last week, so I shot some groups off my range bag.

The first shot went right where I expected, but the second was way high. I looked down the rifle and saw the barrel resting directly on the bag because recoil had slid the rifle back, changing my position. The next two shots were taken with only the hand guard in contact with the bag.

You can probably get a non-floated rifle length A-2 style rifle to shoot well, but I suspect that consistency in how you handle the weapon and build your shooting positions will be essential to sub-moa performance.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12018[/ATTACH]

[NugginFutz]

Here is a mock dissipator upper I recently bought from Palmetto State Armory.
It has a mid length gas block under the handguard for reliability.
It was one of their daily specials and it went out of stock in one day.
It has the same sight radius as the 20" AR-15.
It looks fairly good with the exception of the stainless barrel.

I have to agree that there is something to the "Dissipator" look.

This faux dissipator is one I built and for similar reasons.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12019[/ATTACH]

The 19 1/2" sight radius, combined with the co-witnessed Aimpoint micro, allowed me to successfully engage steel targets past 400 yards in one of LRRPF52's DM courses, a few years back.

[Randy99CL]

Randy,

If you want consistent sub-moa accuracy from a 20" barrel, free float is about the only way it will happen. Even with bull barrels, pressures on the muzzle can cause deflection (usually upward) to the bullet path.

White Oak Armament sells a free-float tube that takes the A2 style hand guards. Not cheap but not more expensive than many rails. Allows you to sling up tight without affecting POI.

https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/up...e-kit.html

Wow, that White Oak float tube kit looks like a great idea! It has a tube that isolates the handguard from the barrel.
It's weird that the WOA link doesn't work anymore and even when you go directly to their site their own link is dead.
But the idea is a good one and I think I'll order the kit.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/wh...cials.html
[ATTACH=CONFIG]12023[/ATTACH]

[VASCAR2]

Randy you might want to look at the barrels sold by J&T Distributing which is a sister company to Double Star Corp. the biggest disadvantage to J&T is most of their barrels are 1:9 twist which is not a deal breaker for me. I have a 16” Heavy Barrel CMV carbine that has been very accurate. Rock River Arms also sell a lot of service rifles and sell the same float tube and A-2 handguard set. RRA usually have a lot of sales if you look at their web site.


https://jtdistributing.com/catalogsearch...el+barrels


https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?...3B.cfusion

[bj139]

The original M16 was 1:14 twist then 1:12, if you wanted to be faithful to the original specs.

[Randy99CL]

The original M16 was 1:14 twist then 1:12, if you wanted to be faithful to the original specs.

What do they call those incredible cars that are rebuilt with modern improvements? Resto-mod? (Wish I still had my 327, 4-speed, 4.10 posi '68 Camaro!)

That's what I'm doing. Couldn't care less about spending big bucks to get the rare old parts, I just want it to look like an M-16 if you're more than 10 feet away.
I do wish I could get a slower twist barrel though. I only plan to load light bullets and most .223 barrels are around 1 in 8".

[VASCAR2]

For some reason I was thinking you were going to build this Tribute rifle in 6.5 Grendel, why I linked to DS/J&T. Green Mountain sells a 1:14 M-16 A1 profile barrel and might be the barrel supplier for Brownell’s Retro rifles. Might be worth checking out.


http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m14-20-m...st-barrel/

[bj139]

For some reason I was thinking you were going to build this Tribute rifle in 6.5 Grendel, why I linked to DS/J&T. Green Mountain sells a 1:14 M-16 A1 profile barrel and might be the barrel supplier for Brownell’s Retro rifles. Might be worth checking out.


http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m14-20-m...st-barrel/

Those Grendel links you provided are quite interesting.

[LRRPF52]

The original M16 was 1:14 twist then 1:12, if you wanted to be faithful to the original specs.

The only reason the prototype AR15s and the Colt 601s were 1:14 were because that's all that was made for .224" blanks for center-fire rifles at the time, mainly for the .222 Remington.

Cold Weather testing showed that 1:14 didn't stabilize well past 200yds, so they tightened the twist to 1:12".

All production models of the Colt 602, 603, and 604 had 1:12" rifling until the advent of the M16A2 in the early 1980s.

[Randy99CL]

Thread Dredge!

Last week I was cruising the net when I ran across the Bushmaster XM-15 M16-Type A3 Rifle.
It's their M-16 Tribute rifle with 20" barrel but the more modern parts like a 30-round mag, forward assist, shell deflector and round handguard. Heavy target barrel with 1 in 9" twist.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12308[/ATTACH]

I was discouraged that the tribute from Colt is $2500 and Brownell's $1300 and the BCA has (thankfully!) been out of stock for months.

Found this Bushmaster for $750 and there is a $125 rebate until the end of the month. Ordered one on Friday, it shipped today and will be at my FFL tomorrow.

I'm excited! Haven't had a .223 since I sold my last Mini-14 in the '90s.
I want it to be pretty accurate and am prepared to get the free-float handguard kit, replace the barrel if I have to and yesterday ordered a LaRue trigger.
I don't like the look of the stock mag so will order some straight metal 20-rounders that are more period correct.

[VASCAR2]

I’ve got a Colt H-Bar I bought in the late 90’s that would shoot some pretty amazing groups with iron sights. Age has caught up to me so I leave a scope on this rifle but still have the carry handle if I want to shoot iron sights. My 1:9 twist 5.56/223 shoot blem 69 grain SMK really well. My H-Bar is not free floated but I mostly shoot off the bench with a bipod so I really don’t notice a shift of POA.

I think you’ll really like the rifle and the MBT sounds like money well spent.

[bj139]

Here is a mock dissipator upper I recently bought from Palmetto State Armory.
It has a mid length gas block under the handguard for reliability.
It was one of their daily specials and it went out of stock in one day.
It has the same sight radius as the 20" AR-15.
It looks fairly good with the exception of the stainless barrel.

Here is a group shot with my dissipator. This has a 1:7 twist. My most twisted barrel.
Considering the front sight view is as wide as the large red square this is not too bad.
On this carry handle in this photo I have the grenade launcher sight.
Has anyone ever tried a golf ball launcher to be used with blanks? This might be fun to try with the grenade launcher sight.
I just had a thought. How about AR15 golf similar to frisbee golf? It would be just as crazy as the game of golf itself.