short barrels and long range

[Deezil]

alot of people have 20"+ barrels, Id love to see some 16-18" barrels at longer distances (3-400+yds), anyone out there doing it? Pics and specs?

[stokesrj]

I have two 16" Grendels, a Les Baer and an AA ultralight. I've shot both at 600 yards and they will easily hold the ten ring on an MR target.
Sorry, I don't have any pics with me, I'm traveling in Arizona and my pics are in Florida.
Bob

[Deezil]

Awesome, what ammo? Reloads or ? 1:8?

[Drifter]

600 yards is no problem with the 18" barrels that I've shot. Twist rates / brands have been 7.5 / Sabre Defence, 8.5 / Krieger, 8.75 / Satern, & 9 / BHW. Usually used 123gr Scenar and A-max bullets with muzzle velocity anywhere between 2450 and 2530 fps. In the absence of wind, 3-shots groups have been sub-MOA, using both factory and handloaded ammo (whichever the barrel had shown preference for).

[Deezil]

awesome, thats why I went with the 6.5G, excited to get mine together!

[stokesrj]

Both are 1:8" and with hand loads with 123 A-Max
Bob

[Deezil]

perfect, the AA upper I have coming is a 1:8!

[LRRPF52]

David Fortier claims that he gets great results out to 800yds on his personal range with his 16" Grendels, and shoots out to 600yds with his 12" Grendel reliably using the 123gr bullets.

[LR1955]

alot of people have 20"+ barrels, Id love to see some 16-18" barrels at longer distances (3-400+yds), anyone out there doing it? Pics and specs?

Deez:

Here is the bottom line with short barrels. Maybe a couple of bottom lines?

If you are using iron sights, the shorter the barrel the shorter the sight radius -- the more prone to sight alignment and picture error = poor consistency that gets worse as you head down range. I had to mention this although most guys here use optics / single point aiming systems. Also, most guys who do have irons on the forum have back up irons which aren't intended to do anything but get the guy out of trouble until he can fix or replace his aimpoint or optic.

More importantly, velocity. The shorter your barrel, the less velocity. The less velocity, the more prone the wind is to push your bullet around. A nice sunrise in the desert when you have no wind and you are only limited by the accuracy potential of your ammunition / rifle / and you. Let the wind pick up and the higher your velocity, the more mistakes you can make doping the wind and get away with it.

If you want a comparison, today people who shoot competitively at 600 view about 2800 fps with a bullet having a .5 or higher G-1 BC to be sufficient but 3K fps is much better. Bullets with this type of BC for the Grendel mean those in the 123 grain range and given a 24" barrel Grendel hot loaded enough that your bolt won't last more than 1K rounds, you may get 2650 but more likely around 2600. So, you can compare the two.

To 300 or 400 yards, unless the wind is really moving or you are shooting at a target that is under 2 MOA, it probably won't matter enough for you to want a longer barrel. Let your target size get under 2 MOA and shifting winds of 5 + MPH and you will probably want the highest possible velocity from the Grendel as you can safely get.

LR1955

[stokesrj]

Hi LR,
How have you been? I generally agree with what you said, the faster the velocity, and the higher the BC the better for 600 yards and certainly beyond... However there are more 80 grain Sierra Match Kings shot at 600 yards competitively than any other bullet by a huge margin. The 80 SMK has a BC of .420 and is fired at 2,700 fps out of a 20" service rifle. Service rifles outnumbered match rifles 4:1 at the National Matches this year. I've seen several cleans (200 out of 200 points for those not familiar) shot with this load under tricky winds so it can be done.
But the obvious issue is that this is the number one load because of rules not because of choice. None the less I find the 123 A-Max fired from a 16" Grendel to be as easy to dope wind with as the 80 grain SMK out of a 20" service rifle. If I were to compete in a full course mid range prone match (300, 500, and 600) with anything other than my service rifle then yes I would shoot a more capable caliber such as a 6BR, 6XC .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor out of a 28 or 30" barrel Tubb 2k or Ellisio tube gun. My friend Jorge Puignau just shot a new national record 200-20X+1X using a 6XC at 600 yards. That is a testament to the shooter not the equipment but it does play to your point of choosing a more capable caliber for that purpose. I would just not short sell the 600 yard performance of a 16" Grendel.
PS Jorge outshot several 6.5X284's even shot from Open F-Class, not just from score but by group size as well, and he was shooting metallic sights from a sling. So skill is still king.

Bob

[jwilson1985]

very true skill is the majority at extended ranges...that said i made hits at 1000 with a 18.5" barrel it was a steel silhouette target... but a scoped riffle of course not open sites.

though when loki demoed some riffles at fort chaffie, a sniper there done 825 with a 16" barrel and a eotec (something i couldnt have done for sure) and one of those things that i wouldnt have believed if i didnt see it.

[LR1955]

very true skill is the majority at extended ranges...that said i made hits at 1000 with a 18.5" barrel it was a steel silhouette target... but a scoped riffle of course not open sites.

though when loki demoed some riffles at fort chaffie, a sniper there done 825 with a 16" barrel and a eotec (something i couldnt have done for sure) and one of those things that i wouldnt have believed if i didnt see it.

JW:

Here is a saying from the shooting sports. "The easiest point you make is the one you buy."

LR1955

[LR1955]

Hi LR,
How have you been? I generally agree with what you said, the faster the velocity, and the higher the BC the better for 600 yards and certainly beyond... However there are more 80 grain Sierra Match Kings shot at 600 yards competitively than any other bullet by a huge margin. The 80 SMK has a BC of .420 and is fired at 2,700 fps out of a 20" service rifle. Service rifles outnumbered match rifles 4:1 at the National Matches this year. I've seen several cleans (200 out of 200 points for those not familiar) shot with this load under tricky winds so it can be done.
But the obvious issue is that this is the number one load because of rules not because of choice. None the less I find the 123 A-Max fired from a 16" Grendel to be as easy to dope wind with as the 80 grain SMK out of a 20" service rifle. If I were to compete in a full course mid range prone match (300, 500, and 600) with anything other than my service rifle then yes I would shoot a more capable caliber such as a 6BR, 6XC .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor out of a 28 or 30" barrel Tubb 2k or Ellisio tube gun. My friend Jorge Puignau just shot a new national record 200-20X+1X using a 6XC at 600 yards. That is a testament to the shooter not the equipment but it does play to your point of choosing a more capable caliber for that purpose. I would just not short sell the 600 yard performance of a 16" Grendel.
PS Jorge outshot several 6.5X284's even shot from Open F-Class, not just from score but by group size as well, and he was shooting metallic sights from a sling. So skill is still king.

Bob

Bob:

Good to see you back and I hope you did well at Camp Perry this year.

I think you already know what I am about to say. So far, it is a toss up between hot loaded 77 grain and hot loaded 80 grain bullets for the "Service Rifle" category in High Power competition. The fact is that without going into an exotic core or lathe turned solids -- both are against the rules -- there is nothing else to choose from.

So, the reason why High Power guys shoot the 80 grain load is that nothing else currently exists that is better for 600. My bet is that if someone would make something that equaled a 6XC loading in 5.56 that the 80 grain loads would disappear as fast as the M-14 / M-1A disappeared from High Power when the AMU broke the code about making a M-16A2 clone competitive.

I would say that your 80 grain load for the AR-15 is probably real close at 600 to the 123 A-Max load you are using for your Grendel. Not enough difference to mean much. On the other hand, I wonder if a decent 77 grain VLD hot loaded the way guys hot load those 80 grain loads wouldn't give an edge over that 123 A-Max load? Not sure but I bet you probably have tried?

LR1955

[hydrotech]

Hi LR,
How have you been? I generally agree with what you said, the faster the velocity, and the higher the BC the better for 600 yards and certainly beyond... However there are more 80 grain Sierra Match Kings shot at 600 yards competitively than any other bullet by a huge margin. The 80 SMK has a BC of .420 and is fired at 2,700 fps out of a 20" service rifle. Service rifles outnumbered match rifles 4:1 at the National Matches this year. I've seen several cleans (200 out of 200 points for those not familiar) shot with this load under tricky winds so it can be done.
But the obvious issue is that this is the number one load because of rules not because of choice. None the less I find the 123 A-Max fired from a 16" Grendel to be as easy to dope wind with as the 80 grain SMK out of a 20" service rifle. If I were to compete in a full course mid range prone match (300, 500, and 600) with anything other than my service rifle then yes I would shoot a more capable caliber such as a 6BR, 6XC .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor out of a 28 or 30" barrel Tubb 2k or Ellisio tube gun. My friend Jorge Puignau just shot a new national record 200-20X+1X using a 6XC at 600 yards. That is a testament to the shooter not the equipment but it does play to your point of choosing a more capable caliber for that purpose. I would just not short sell the 600 yard performance of a 16" Grendel.
PS Jorge outshot several 6.5X284's even shot from Open F-Class, not just from score but by group size as well, and he was shooting metallic sights from a sling. So skill is still king.

Bob

Hi I'm new here but have an AR and hopefully soon a Grendel and I am glad to hear this. If I get a Grendel I'd really like an 18 inch, with a collapsible stock. I love how portable short Ar's are. I usually shoot only to 300 yards but if I buy a Grendel id really like to be able to get to 600. It seems there would be a lot of weight difference between 80 smk and 123 amax. Is there a twist rate that shoots both these well? As I research I'd like to find out. I generally like heavier bullets but I know Grendel has limited case capacity. What do ya think a good length is for a portable truck gun and barrel twist for Grendel you may wanna jump out n pop a coyote at 500 yard on farm or hit 600 on paper? Would a 20 be better?

[Drifter]

It seems there would be a lot of weight difference between 80 smk and 123 amax. Is there a twist rate that shoots both these well?

When stokesrj referenced the 80gr SMK, it was likely regarding a .223 / 5.56mm weapon, and comparing the performance to the 123gr A-max in the 6.5 Grendel. In other words, they're bullets for different calibers / cartridges.

[LR1955]

Hi I'm new here but have an AR and hopefully soon a Grendel and I am glad to hear this. If I get a Grendel I'd really like an 18 inch, with a collapsible stock. I love how portable short Ar's are. I usually shoot only to 300 yards but if I buy a Grendel id really like to be able to get to 600. It seems there would be a lot of weight difference between 80 smk and 123 amax. Is there a twist rate that shoots both these well? As I research I'd like to find out. I generally like heavier bullets but I know Grendel has limited case capacity. What do ya think a good length is for a portable truck gun and barrel twist for Grendel you may wanna jump out n pop a coyote at 500 yard on farm or hit 600 on paper? Would a 20 be better?

HT:

Since your truck is carrying the rifle, a 20 or 24 inch barrel will be better than a shorter barrel.

There was a discussion on truck rifles here a couple of weeks ago. Run a search and I think you will find the right thread. It was pretty informative.

I am sure you can 'get to' 600 with any Grendel load. Just depends on how good you are at range estimation and wind doping. Nothing wrong with trying some 140 grain SMKs with about 27 grains of TAC or a similar powder. Very slow but good performance at 600. Maybe a better bet is a 120 SMK as they tend to shoot well out of anything. 600 should not be a huge issue unless you can't stay on top of the winds. Either will kill a coyote.

What is up with the twist rate thing? Grendels come basically with 8 to 9 turn twists. Either or any will be fine with any reasonable bullet weight. The 140's may be on the edge with a 9 turn twist. If you use a very short barrel, most likely something faster than 1 turn in 8 to get a longer bullet spinning fast enough from a short barrel.

You won't have much of a choice as twist rates with these AR blasters are as much dependent on barrel length and function of the gas system as they are in stabilizing the bullet. And in answer to your next question -- no -- there is not one ideal twist rate outside of the laboratory.

LR55

[hydrotech]

ahh ok that makes more sense, thank you! i was assuming both shot in grendel.

[hydrotech]

thanks, thats informative

[JASmith]

That's impressive shooting!

It also reminds us that the AR15 magazine length indeed puts limits on long range performance.

I am mildly curious about why folks haven't tried the WSSM variants for long range competition. (Let me hasten to add that we should start a fresh thread if folks want to beat this horse!)

[bwaites]

That's impressive shooting!

It also reminds us that the AR15 magazine length indeed puts limits on long range performance.

I am mildly curious about why folks haven't tried the WSSM variants for long range competition. (Let me hasten to add that we should start a fresh thread if folks want to beat this horse!)

In two words. cost and recoil. As I understand it, they haven't been shown to be significantly better at the mid ranges than what is available, while offering substantially more recoil. You end up basically shooting the same bullets, but driving them faster, with more powder and significantly more expensive brass. Theoretically, the extra speed should be an advantage, but evidently not as much as you would expect with that extra recoil.

At long ranges, the WSM's and full size cartridges have even more powder capacity, and offer the advantage of driving heavier, higher BC bullets faster. (From bolt guns, of course.) I've seen guys playing with the WSSM's at F Class matches, but they don't seem to be winning. The winners in F Open almost always are shooting 6.5-284, .284's of some stripe, or 7mm WSM's.