I've done my research and asked my knowledgeable friends many annoying questions about ARs, but no one I know has a Grendel, so I thought I'd check in with the experienced folks.
Because this is my first black rifle, I'm not going to build one up from parts. However, I could not find what I was looking for in a complete rifle without spending a ton of money, so I'm shopping for a complete lower receiver and complete upper for easy assembly.
From my reading, these are the low-end of the higher-end stuff (which is generally what I go for as a value proposition) and gets me into a functional rifle for about $1250, before optics, ammo, or magazines. Does this seem like a reasonable path? Anyone have suggestions or things I should consider before placing the order?
Those are both reputable vendors and high-quality items. Should be a tack driver! I couldn’t tell what trigger that comes with, but that is always an easy future upgrade if you’re not satisfied with whatever comes from YHM.
-Zac
Husband, Father, Veteran. Grateful for my redemption.
Lowers are like LEGOs for men. Seriously, part that thing and save the scratch for a trigger and a Lutheran MBA1. Billet lowers nowadays come tapped for screws instead of the roll pins, and Battle Arms makes an awesome set of pivot/take down pins that kill the hardest parts of the lower assembly. Nvm youre not saving money after all... oh darn!
Gah... now you have me thinking about building again. OH THE ITCH THE ITCH!
Really though, if youre handy at all and have some persistent patience, building from parts is really rewarding.
Welcome to the Hoarde! And youve got some good taste, the PF stuff is first class, the wait is worth it... according to everyone who knows...
Have you looked at the Larue Ultimate Upper kit? Google it. Good stuff. Best value out there for upper end Grendel right now. Seriously, look it up. Make your AR buddies jealous. (Disclaimer: I drink cool aid; Larue is my gun porn)
There were a couple of PF rifles and uppers in the Buy Sell Trade section. I can tell you from experience, that is the only way you are going to be shooting a PF upper before May at the earliest. Great rifles, but the wait time is grossly underestimated. Myself and many other members here were 6 months or longer waiting.
For that kind of money, I would also look at JP rifles. Top quality there also.
Just like the lower, you can assemble the upper yourself, just buy a high end barrel if that is your goal.
Welcome to the Clan, Alex984, from the Great Nation of Texas! Your plan is sound - as stated above, some of the lead times are painful. You might also look at Alexander Arms for the upper. What part of the world are you in?
01-09-2018, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2018, 01:50 PM by Sean Boburk.)
Disclaimer...I am not a brand snob so am not familiar with brands. The lower is a forged lower, has a basic butt stock, and says nothing of the trigger. If it is a MIL spec trigger, the price seems very steep to me. If it were me (I am a budget builder), I would get a cheaper lower elsewhere (PSA?) with a better stock, and spend the green I saved on a decent trigger. If I missed something and it has a nice trigger, seems like an OK price...not great.
It also has a commercial stock instead of MIL spec...this limits your stock choices somewhat....
I would say similar of the upper...without knowing the value of the brand name, $870 seems very steep for what they describe as an entry level upper. Seems an MOA upper could be had for 1/2 - 2/3rds of that price.
01-09-2018, 03:20 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2018, 03:24 PM by zcostilla.)
I would agree with the sentiment to build your own lower if you’re comfortable doing so. I built my entire Grendel AR, including the optics and sling, for under $850. It was built over Thanksgiving through Christmas timeframe, and I haven’t sighted in yet, but I hope to be under 1MOA. Based upon the reputation of Precision Firearms, I’d think your upper should shoot better than 1MOA, but you could save some serious cash by building your own. That said, if you’re in a hurry or don’t want to build it, there’s nothing wrong with built lowers. As I said before, you’re choosing reputable vendors. And just because something doesn’t match my own preferences, you are certainly able to choose based upon your own preferences.
-Zac
Husband, Father, Veteran. Grateful for my redemption.
I'm new to the AR world and this thread brings up some questions I've wondered about for a while.
Why is there so much difference in the price of AR parts when they often seem exactly the same???
If a lower is forged and is a collection of unknown parts how are some priced at $100 while others (that seem no better) are around $400?
This isn't Cadillac/Chevy or Zeiss/Simmons where it is obvious that you're getting a better product, these pieces are usually "mil-spec" and that guarantees that they function the same.
A few months ago, before I joined this forum, I planned out my first AR build and read of the Ruger AR-Lower Elite. It's 7075 forged, made here in their NC plant, has great Magpul stock and grip and the $100+ Ruger 452 trigger. https://ruger.com/products/ar556/specSheets/8516.html
So is it $400? It's brand name, US made, good furniture, good trigger, right? No, I got it for less than $220 and it functions perfectly. The trigger is way better than the mil-spec that the more expensive pieces come with.
Can someone explain how/why those expensive lowers are worth the money?
Curious to see responses...but I know you can drop $200 on a nice trigger. Best I have is timney, and I think that was 180ish. So I can see a lower with a nice trigger being priced higher. I would prefer to buy one without a trigger and just add my own choice of triggers. Anyhow, outside of a nice trigger, or upper end stock, I don't know why there is such a large spread in prices. Brand name maybe?
Here’s my thoughts on triggers: Unless I was using my AR as a duty weapon, where I had a reasonable chance of being sued for employing it, I’d NEVER use a MIL-SPEC trigger. I see absolutely zero reason to use a trigger with creep, gritty takeup, and slip when I can get more consistency and the same reliability with a drop-in unit.
As to the idea of cost, some of it is reputation, supply and demand, and si o,y, whatever a vendor can get away with.
-Zac
Husband, Father, Veteran. Grateful for my redemption.
01-09-2018, 10:21 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2018, 10:26 PM by Lastrites.)
Ok I'll be that guy and say I wouldn't buy that lower at that price point. Brownells has or had complete Colt lowers for $250 and that price point would be tops as I still would want a nicer trigger. Palmetto State Armory has a complete lower with a Magpul Moe stock for $150 shipped, add a nicer trigger and your at $250 to $300. OP in my opinion you would be best served to do some shopping.
Lastrites Wrote:Ok I'll be that guy and say I wouldn't buy that lower at that price point. Brownells has or had complete Colt lowers for $250 and that price point would be tops as I still would want a nicer trigger. Palmetto State Armory has a complete lower with a Magpul Moe stock for $150 shipped, add a nicer trigger and your at $250 to $300. OP in my opinion you would be best served to do some shopping.
Personally, I would go the MOE route (or better yet, ACS-L). I've got a scar on my forehead that says that I don't like the stock adjustment lever exposed. I leaned on it when shooting at the range with my AR308, and the stock collapsed, driving the scope into my forehead. Maybe I'm just a dumbass
I concur regarding the lower. That seems quite spendy for me, particularly since I'm certain that the trigger, pistol grip, and buttstock will end up in a closet when you inevitably decide to replace them. I don't have any recommendations on complete lower alternatives, but would suggest building one. The only specialized tool you would need for assembly is a wrench for the buffer tube castle nut. It's really easy, particularly when you can just pull up a Youtube tutorial these days.
I would recommend buying a stripped forged lower from any reputable manufacturer (I almost always use Aero Precision but that's mostly laziness and familiarity) and lower parts kit that omits the fire control group (essentially the trigger bits, I recently used this one https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/...y=ourPicks).
Then you can pick the exact grip, trigger, and buttstock you want the first time around. The carbine buffer tube (milspec is standard and pertains to diameter of the tube) and spring are easy choices. Finally, you'll just need a buffer, which again just needs to be from a reputable manufacturer (I once cheaped out on a buffer and it came apart in the tube). A standard carbine weight buffer will work, but a heavy (H) buffer should also function reliably and make for a smoother shooting rifle. Heavier buffers may not be appropriate depending on unknown factors like the barrel gas port diameter and gas system length.
Wow, great info guys. Thanks. Some specific replies below...
Kswhitetails Wrote:Really though, if youre handy at all and have some persistent patience, building from parts is really rewarding.
Probably sacrilege around here, but I'm not sure I'll like the AR and I think a complete lower from a reputable company would have better resale than something a first time builder like myself could put together.
Sticks Wrote:Just like the lower, you can assemble the upper yourself, just buy a high end barrel if that is your goal.
As for the upper, it seems like chamber spacing can be tricky. Maybe not?
just_john Wrote:Welcome to the Clan, Alex984, from the Great Nation of Texas! Your plan is sound - as stated above, some of the lead times are painful. You might also look at Alexander Arms for the upper. What part of the world are you in?
I'm in Virginia. A few hours from PF and more than a few hours from AA. AA does seem like good stuff. My impression was that you pay more for PF but get more for your money. I could be wrong.
Randy99CL Wrote:If a lower is forged and is a collection of unknown parts how are some priced at $100 while others (that seem no better) are around $400?
This isn't Cadillac/Chevy or Zeiss/Simmons where it is obvious that you're getting a better product, these pieces are usually "mil-spec" and that guarantees that they function the same.
Hey, something I can actually answer! I'm a (civilian) army engineer and work with "mil spec" all the time. It doesn't really mean what you think it does. In the commercial rifle world, I think it just means it's built to the right tolerances with a suitable material, not that it's gone through the myriad qualifications, quality assurance, and environmental testing. Environmental testing (MIL-STD-810G) is itself a document the size of a phone book and testing to that standard is only as good as the engineer who specified the correct measures.
Lastrites Wrote:Ok I'll be that guy and say I wouldn't buy that lower at that price point. Brownells has or had complete Colt lowers for $250 and that price point would be tops as I still would want a nicer trigger. Palmetto State Armory has a complete lower with a Magpul Moe stock for $150 shipped, add a nicer trigger and your at $250 to $300. OP in my opinion you would be best served to do some shopping.
I thought about that Colt but it's out of stock and I have my doubts it'll come back at that price. If I do end up ordering the PF upper, I guess I'll have 8-10 more weeks to think about a lower, though. I will look more into PSA. Thanks for your advice.
Sean Boburk Wrote:Personally, I would go the MOE route (or better yet, ACS-L). I've got a scar on my forehead that says that I don't like the stock adjustment lever exposed. I leaned on it when shooting at the range with my AR308, and the stock collapsed, driving the scope into my forehead. Maybe I'm just a dumbass
01-10-2018, 05:45 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2018, 05:48 AM by zcostilla.)
I dont want to hijack this thread, but you can build your rifle cheaper than buying an assembled lower and upper. It is very possible to get quality parts for cheap if you are willing to hunt for deal, and build patiently. Please dont take my build as the best, or only way to go, because I know I focused on cost first and foremost on most of my parts, and went for uncompromising quality for others (like the trigger, and BCG/bolt). Heres the cost breakdown (as best I can remember the cost of a few items from memory). I havent bought a thread protector yet, and my magazine has not come in yet. But heres a photo. You really can (and in my opinion, should) build your own. Just be patient, and learn as you build. I learned a TON from the folks here on this forum.
-Zac
Husband, Father, Veteran. Grateful for my redemption.
zcostilla Wrote:I dont want to hijack this thread, but you can build your rifle cheaper than buying an assembled lower and upper. It is very possible to get quality parts for cheap if you are willing to hunt for deal, and build patiently.
Haven't we discussed this before? Sorry, may have been someone else.
I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I think that most companies (can't verify all) give at least a small discount when a complete upper or lower is purchased.
I ordered BCA upper SKU #UASC6.5RHB20185R(MF)-(15)MLOK. Retail price is $334.99 and with the 10% Veteran discount it cost me $301.49 BCA Side Charging AR-15 Complete Upper Assembly, 20" 4150 Black Nitride Heavy Barrel, Straight Flutes, 6.5 Grendel Type II, Rifle Length Gas System, 1:8 5R Twist w/ 15" MLOK
The side-charge receiver with BCG is on sale for $160.99
The barrel is $140.99
The handguard (with barrel nut) is $87.99
The gas block is $25.75
The gas tube is $20.99
The flash hider is $9.22
Those prices add up to $445.93 and with the 10% discount it's $401.34, $100 more than buying the complete upper.
And the Ruger 8516 complete lower cost me $218.
The 452 trigger alone is $139 at Midway.
The Magpul MOE stock is on sale for $51.25
The Magpul MOE grip is on sale for $17.05
So the price of just the trigger and the two Magpul pieces is $207.30 at Midway. To be fair the trigger can be purchased for as little as $110 if you shop around but you can still see that it's much cheaper buying the complete lower.
The upper was assembled by BCA and they gave me the 3 empty cases they fired to test it.
The lower was assembled and tested by Ruger.
Another consideration is the warranty. If you build from a number of suppliers who is going to guarantee anything? It will be like computers; the hardware company says the problem is software and the software says it's hardware and no one fixes anything.
If I have a problem I go to BCA or Ruger and I guarantee they will stand behind their product. No screwing around.
In a thread earlier today (now yesterday) I showed this build that cost me $531 for upper, lower and one magazine.
Alex if your hesitant and think this may end up a catch and release project, there are two routes to travel. One is buy the cheapest complete lower that can be had or go the complete opposite and purchase a good name brand that is often sought after. One will sell easily while the other will be a give away if you consider the current conditions in the AR market.
