Muscle Memory II -- Position

[JASmith]

...LR1955 says that by concentrating on the sight picture, the trigger pull will take care of itself. But, I stand on the concept that the trigger pull can only take care of itself if you teach your body to do it correctly. And, train your body to remember how to do it correctly by doing it over and over again. Muscle memory is just a term commonly used to describe this and shouldn't be confused with visual memory.

Believing that LR1955 doesn't much to say about trigger pull is like believing the sun rises in the west!

[LR1955]

My experience has always been that if you can train yourself to perform the same act over and over again, you will develop muscle memory and a natural point of aim. This was very important when night shooting. You couldn't always get a perfect sight picture. But, if you were comfortable that you are on target by using your natural point of aim, then you can move on to positively identifying the target.

From my point of view, learning the basics and developing muscle memory allows you to "get" that sight picture easier. If you put your body and gun in the right position every time (if that is possible ... depending on circumstances), it will be right where you need it to be to get a good sight picture.

The process that LR1955 is describing is fine, I'm not disagreeing ...... but it appears that he is coaching shooters that already know how to shoot. I'm sure it is easier for bwaites to get that sight picture he needs than a new shooter with no expercience. bwaites already knows what feels right and when he is in a good shooting stance. That's half the game. If you already developed the ability to perform a given task (sighting in to shoot) with repitition, then you can move on to fine tuning the rest.

When I initially brought up "muscle memory" in the first thread, it was in response to a person asking how we shoulder our rifle. I assumed that person was a new shoooter (I could be wrong). I talked about how I would teach a person how to hold and operate the gun and then encourage them to practice the basics and try to develope muscle memory for those tasks. LRRPF52 asked what our deffinitions of muscle memory where, and the muscle memory threads were born. LR1955 is talking about visual memory which is a whole different animal. Muscle memory is teaching your mind/body to remember how to do a task by repeating that task over and over until it becomes a natural movement. I believe that LR1955 is talking about memorizing (visually) what a good sight picture is and shooting when you see what you have memorized ..... but I could be wrong. LR1955 says that by concentrating on the sight picture, the trigger pull will take care of itself. But, I stand on the concept that the trigger pull can only take care of itself if you teach your body to do it correctly. And, train your body to remember how to do it correctly by doing it over and over again. Muscle memory is just a term commonly used to describe this and shouldn't be confused with visual memory.

Mutt:

Yes, the sight picture is visual memory. However, when you ask someone to maintain that sight picture through the shot, the action becomes physical. If the sight picture moves, the individual will take physical steps to get it back again.

I have another saying which is train the body to point the rifle (position), and condition the finger to move when the eyes see (sight picture).

Of these two actions, I doubt anyone can get into a position that points the barrel to much better than about a 90 percent.

Here is one that you and others here can do. I do this when on ranges that allow it and it is fun, very enlightening when it comes to the importance of some training concepts over others, and also has the benefit of allowing someone to really focus their attention.

Stand in front of a CQC target at ten yards. Rehearse your ready up thing for a few minutes to ensure you have the very best of positions.

Blind fold yourself, bring your carbine to the low ready and relax for a minute or two. Then focus yourself in again and while blind folded, bring the carbine up and fire a controlled pair at that full upper torso E-Sil sitting 30 feet away that you just rehearsed on.

Or, you can go to the point of firing and have someone remove the blind fold. Or just close your eyes and open them when you think your carbine is in a perfect position (sights brought to the eyes and barrel pointed at that target. Since the target is 20" wide and 40" tall, we are talking muscle memory along being able to hold to within about 90 or 100 minutes of angle.

That normally changes the views of guys who up until that point were huge proponents of incessant ready up drills. They normally get one or maybe two hits out of ten controlled pairs.

This is not to say that you don't practice position. Only that it may pay more to focus on conditioning the finger to move when the eye sees than to do incessant physical drills.

As for trigger pull -- lets see.... Even with that lousy trigger on a M-4, a person must move their finger about a half an inch against about nine pounds of pressure. With some of the Grendels guys have on the forum with two stage triggers, they have to move their finger about 1/8 of an inch against five pounds.

It isn't them pulling the trigger that causes problems. It is them shifting attention away from what must be done to shoot well just before and during the trigger pull that is normally the problem. Keep their attention focused on one single thing they know they can do and trigger pull really does get executed without conscious thought.

Again, it depends on how one wants to expend his or her resources. Particularly the resource of training time.

So, I don't really care how the guy pulls the trigger, which finger he uses, what part of the finger is used, etc. As long as the act of pulling the trigger does not disrupt the sight picture, the trigger pull is fine. If it does disrupt the sight picture, it is because attention shifted from maintaining the sight picture towards something else. That is providing someone believes that humans are capable of self regulating while performing an action.

This one can go on for a while. Time to start a new thread.

LR55

[JASmith]

I wasn't sure which style of shooting we're discussing in this thread until now. So, as we shift to a new thread, another question:

How would the focus on trigger pull change if, for example, one is shooting at 1000 yards and using a highly tuned target trigger with 1.5 lb pull and almost no movement?

From the previous description, it seems that a simple extension of "pull when sight picture is right" might be OK.

There is a fairly significant body of literature that can be summed up as "pull the trigger slowly enough that the shot is a surprise." Does this philosophy become more prominent in your school of thought for long-range precision shooting? Alternatively, do things like mirage, wind conditions, timing for heart beat make the "pull when sight picture correct" as or even more important?

[LR1955]

I wasn't sure which style of shooting we're discussing in this thread until now. So, as we shift to a new thread, another question:

How would the focus on trigger pull change if, for example, one is shooting at 1000 yards and using a highly tuned target trigger with 1.5 lb pull and almost no movement?

From the previous description, it seems that a simple extension of "pull when sight picture is right" might be OK.

There is a fairly significant body of literature that can be summed up as "pull the trigger slowly enough that the shot is a surprise." Does this philosophy become more prominent in your school of thought for long-range precision shooting? Alternatively, do things like mirage, wind conditions, timing for heart beat make the "pull when sight picture correct" as or even more important?

JAS:

The rifle, trigger, ammo, sights et. al do not know what distance even if you tell them so why would you think they need to be treated any differently because you are shooting at a longer range?

If anything guys who shoot at longer distances are faster simply because once they have made a decision in terms of wind, they know the wind won't stay in that condition for very long so once they have decided to shoot, it is very fast.

If someone tells you to 'pull the trigger slowly so it surprises you when it goes off', will you be able to do this without conscious thought? And, where will your attention be focused for your shot? So, if it is your trigger you want to work on, then it will be conscious because that is what you are demanding of yourself. Just accept that you may get a perfect trigger pull every time, but at the expense of what may be top end performance. The reason why guys may shift to conscious trigger pull is because their performance is so inconsistent that they would rather be consistent than perfect. Once they think they have their trigger problem worked out, it slips back into the realm of semi-conscious.

As for the human working on pictures, think about your firing a shot once in position. You see the sight picture and hold, then probably somewhat detach yourself from the situation, and the shot is fired. How fast? Most likely under 1/2 of a second once you settle. Remember, it takes time for the muscle to respond to a command.

And now I am getting into the cause of 'muscle memory' which is basically the result of synaptogenesis -- caused by repetition AND a proper focus of attention. Ever wonder why some folks can do hundreds of repetitions of something and show no improvement? It is because they aren't focused -- absorbed -- in what they are doing. There are two sides to the 'muscle memory' thing. Not only does someone have to perform the task, it has to be done with their attention directed towards performing the task. If they are not motivated to do the task, all the time spent in repetitive training is for nothing.

Another thing about strengthening those synaptic connections / cementing the skill into long term memory is to adapt the task to differing sets of conditions. Doing the same thing over and over again without stimulus is an immense waste of time and physical effort. The human brain is designed around adaptation so why not train that way?

So, there you go. A way of defining 'muscle memory' and a technique that will get more from the training than simple repetition. There is a reason why people say that excessive repetition of a simple act is 'mind-numbing'.

LR1955

[fanofflyn]

When I look, I see the impact point when the weapon goes off.

[Mutt]

Entire post was deleted ..............


I think I'm about done with this topic.


Enjoy

[bwaites]

Gentleman, one of the reasons that we invited LR1955 to serve as the Marksmanship Moderator was because of his vast experience training and coaching military and civilian shooters.

Although he is retired from the Army, he is anything BUT a conventional "the Army way is the ONLY way" thinker. He has evaluated what has worked to teach and coach, and some of his ideas may not fit what has come to be thought of as the "conventional" teaching and coaching method.

He is very open to ACTUAL performance enhancing techniques, and his posts here are often of the "evaluate your sacred cow and see if it REALLY is the best way" nature. His purpose is to make YOU evaluate what you do and decide if it might be done better in a different way.

Although he is somewhat brusque in his writing at times, his intent is to make you think through your points, and defend them with sound argument, so that the results you talk about can be repeated by others.

When he questions you, it is not because he thinks you don't know what you are talking about, but because he wants you to clarify what your thought process is so that less experienced shooters can duplicate what you do if at all possible, IF IT WORKS!

Having spent many hours with LR1955, and having watched several hundred new shooters learn from him and his staff, I appreciate his ability to get people who have never shot at any significant distance to accomplish things they never thought possible.

Is his way the ONLY way? Of course not! But he will make you evaluate what works and why, and that is his purpose.

Please continue to contribute, since many have minimal experience at this kind of shooting, and every idea might have some merit. Re-examine what your "sacred cows" are, and see if there isn't something you can do to improve your shooting, or help with a newbie!

[Mutt]

NO thanks

[LR1955]

Gentleman, one of the reasons that we invited LR1955 to serve as the Marksmanship Moderator was because of his vast experience training and coaching military and civilian shooters.

Although he is retired from the Army, he is anything BUT a conventional "the Army way is the ONLY way" thinker. He has evaluated what has worked to teach and coach, and some of his ideas may not fit what has come to be thought of as the "conventional" teaching and coaching method.

He is very open to ACTUAL performance enhancing techniques, and his posts here are often of the "evaluate your sacred cow and see if it REALLY is the best way" nature. His purpose is to make YOU evaluate what you do and decide if it might be done better in a different way.

Although he is somewhat brusque in his writing at times, his intent is to make you think through your points, and defend them with sound argument, so that the results you talk about can be repeated by others.

When he questions you, it is not because he thinks you don't know what you are talking about, but because he wants you to clarify what your thought process is so that less experienced shooters can duplicate what you do if at all possible, IF IT WORKS!

Having spent many hours with LR1955, and having watched several hundred new shooters learn from him and his staff, I appreciate his ability to get people who have never shot at any significant distance to accomplish things they never thought possible.

Is his way the ONLY way? Of course not! But he will make you evaluate what works and why, and that is his purpose.

Please continue to contribute, since many have minimal experience at this kind of shooting, and every idea might have some merit. Re-examine what your "sacred cows" are, and see if there isn't something you can do to improve your shooting, or help with a newbie!

Bill:

Thanks for your confidence but no need, really. My intent was to share training ideas and concepts, not to piss off everyone and their uncle.

I have done this for close to 14 years since my retirement from the Army. This started well before 9/11 with my last one about three weeks ago. Most with the Army, spanning all branches but some with civilians.

Does any of this mean I have perfected anything? Absolutely not. I can't remember if I ever ran the same course the same way as the entire 14 years has been one of constant learning with the integration of new learning and training techniques into almost every course. And each course has differed as units differ in their missions, leadership, and general culture.

It has been an excellent run that is ending as the wars end, and I figured to share some lessons learned as they arise.

Found out that it is better to let this one die.

LR55

[Taylormade]

LR1955, LRRPF52, bwaites, I appreciate all your input and knowledge its obvious you guys have a ton of experience. So I'd like to say thanks and just ignore those that are afraid to listen and accept a better way. Keep up the good work.

[LRRPF52]

You can see what works and what doesn't with new shooters. During BoomerShoot in 2011, I had a young girl student to coach who had never shot past 100yds before, and had very limited shooting experience. I had talked with LR1955 about how I could make the shooting fundamentals into a type of acronym that would be easy to use and sequence, and he asked me how many things can you focus on at once? He asked what's going on with your position when you have a perfect sight picture. What's going on with your breathing when you have a perfect sight picture? Trigger squeeze?

As he explained that, I realized that what he was describing was what was going on with me when I had my best performance...I was only focused on as perfect a sight picture as possible when the shot broke. If I was worrying about anything else, my performance deteriorated, and this goes for pistols, carbine, long-range rifles, or bows.

So this is what I passed on to the teenage girl during the rifle clinic, who then proceeded to swing the 10" plate with flag at 700yds repeatedly like it was fun or something. She was using an old Swedish Mauser, that had been turned into a target rifle with a heavy barrel. She was shooting some old, corroded Swedish military ammo, where you could literally see the corrosion on the cases and projectiles.

This year, I coached another teenage kid who wanted to join the Marines. By the half-time of the first day, he was hitting the 10" plate with the swinging flag at 700yds repeatedly, like it was easy and boring. He literally got bored of making hit after hit, and looked at me like I was some kind of idiot when I was trying to get on steel at 600yds (using 500yd dope mistakenly). I think he literally thought that I was a blithering moron for not being able to mirror what he was doing.

There is definitely something to be said for "...maintaining a good sight picture throughout the process of taking the shot". I'm sold on it. It was what I had done since I was a kid when I had as exact POI to POA as possible, but I just had never heard it discussed in this manner in any formal training. The muscle memory exercise to take away from this is the muscle in your head.