The Threat is Real, very real.

[Klem]

Motive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT43u1wvy-4

We, as AR and gun owners, are clearly in the crosshairs.

The tin foil hat brigade are coming out of the woodwork.

[bj139]

The tin foil hat brigade are coming out of the woodwork.

You don't think there are people who want us disarmed? Open eyes, please.

[Klem]

No doubt about that, but that's no excuse to be leaning towards a more unlikely theory than the facts tell us so far. I will add that conspiracy theories feed the wider public's belief that gun owners are anti-social weirdo's (you have to admit, some gun owners are anti-social weirdo's).

No Russian or Billary sleeper agents. No aliens at Area 52. No second shooter on the grassy knoll. Just Occam's Razor with probability and evidence eliminating the theories until only one remains...Until evidence tells us otherwise the most likely theory is that he's a lone, cranky old b*astard with a death wish.

[BjornF16]

NRA calling for ATF to re-examine and regulate Slide Fire (or bump stocks). Also calling on Congress to pass National Reciprocity

https://home.nra.org/joint-statement/

[bj139]

No doubt about that, but that's no excuse to be leaning towards a more unlikely theory than the facts tell us so far. I will add that conspiracy theories feed the wider public's belief that gun owners are anti-social weirdo's (you have to admit, some gun owners are anti-social weirdo's).

No Russian or Billary sleeper agents. No aliens at Area 52. No second shooter on the grassy knoll. Just Occam's Razor with probability and evidence eliminating the theories until only one remains...Until evidence tells us otherwise he's a lone, cranky old b*astard with a death wish.

No undeformed bullet that went through 2 people found on a stretcher. Yes. I understand.

[Klem]

I see Surefire 100rd mags and bump stocks are 'sold out'.

You can see the strategy behind the NRA proactively conceding bump-stocks to prevent wider restrictions.

[bj139]

Not much use for a bump stock on a precision rifle like a Grendel.

[Drift]

I have no use for a bump fire rifle at all. That's why I through all of mine out.

[howl]

There is no need to give anti-gunners anything. We have compromised enough. They have to stop trotting out the same old song and dance every time and offer something else as a possible solution. They won't because that isn't the game. They run out the gun control nonsense and then blame the right when the ridiculous ideas don't go anywhere. Their end game is continued fundraising and time in office. If they get lucky and succeed in disarming the opposition, then so much the better.

The point that seems lost on so many of us is that it is not just the Ds that do this. The Rs play along in return for the same on other issues. And they wouldn't mind seeing us disarmed, either. You have only to look at what is going on in Catalonia to see where this can lead.

Throwing away bump stocks changes the narrative back to the idea that guns are somehow part of the problem. We have been winning by making obvious the facts and that guns are not the problem. That should be the course. I really hope NRA isn't shooting themselves in the foot with this thing. The great influx of membership and money may not come if they side with anti-gunners.

I really think Gun Owner of America has taken the correct approach. Point out that guns are not the issue and that much more effective weapons are used in the absence of firearms. Practically everyone at that concert was missed by the shooter. If he had used more effective means they would not have been.

[stanc]

Motive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT43u1wvy-4

Unproven speculation. You really should stay away from Infowars. That stuff will rot your brain.

[Klem]

There is no need to give anti-gunners anything. We have compromised enough. They have to stop trotting out the same old song and dance every time and offer something else as a possible solution. They won't because that isn't the game. They run out the gun control nonsense and then blame the right when the ridiculous ideas don't go anywhere. Their end game is continued fundraising and time in office. If they get lucky and succeed in disarming the opposition, then so much the better.

The point that seems lost on so many of us is that it is not just the Ds that do this. The Rs play along in return for the same on other issues. And they wouldn't mind seeing us disarmed, either. You have only to look at what is going on in Catalonia to see where this can lead.

Throwing away bump stocks changes the narrative back to the idea that guns are somehow part of the problem. We have been winning by making obvious the facts and that guns are not the problem. That should be the course. I really hope NRA isn't shooting themselves in the foot with this thing. The great influx of membership and money may not come if they side with anti-gunners.

I really think Gun Owner of America has taken the correct approach. Point out that guns are not the issue and that much more effective weapons are used in the absence of firearms. Practically everyone at that concert was missed by the shooter. If he had used more effective means they would not have been.

Well, it's all about the risk we all take living in a democracy where a small portion of gun owners want to misuse their guns. As a gun owner, do you want to live with the risk that someone will misuse a bump-stock to maximise carnage for continued access to them? I love my guns but don't particularly care about bump stocks. So, if it makes society a tiny bit more safe then sure, let's ban them. We've all got to live together and I also want live in a safe place.

As for encouraging the narrative that guns are the problem, well to be honest they are part of the problem. Obviously it is the nut behind the bolt that does the killing but you cannot deny that restricting civilian gun ownership lessens the likelihood of firearm misuse. But, this logic only holds true if the restrictions are across the board and cannot be circumvented. There are of course other issues at play here;

1. The definition of freedom in a country that valorises gun ownership.
   
2. The potential the guy will simply use a different means to kill others.
   
3. The likelihood that restriction will only target law-abiding citizens in a country where the authorities remain largely unaware of who has what.
   

and probably a bunch of other cogent arguments that with a little effort we can think of.

My argument is that gun restriction is a politically convenient and clumsy way of mitigating the problem. If it works then let democracy in a population decide the extent of restriction, but we all know it doesn't really work.

[stanc]

Throwing away bump stocks changes the narrative back to the idea that guns are somehow part of the problem. We have been winning by making obvious the facts and that guns are not the problem. That should be the course. I really hope NRA isn't shooting themselves in the foot with this thing. The great influx of membership and money may not come if they side with anti-gunners.

It's already starting to backfire on them. I was just on arfcom, and a number of people there said they had cancelled their NRA memberships.

There have also been gun businesses which have stopped selling bumpfire stocks, and some YouTube gun people like hickok45 who've spoken out against these stocks.

I really think Gun Owner of America has taken the correct approach. Point out that guns are not the issue and that much more effective weapons are used in the absence of firearms.

With 58 killied and 500+ wounded, somehow I doubt that John Q. Public is going to be convinced guns are not the issue.

[stanc]

Not much use for a bump stock on a precision rifle like a Grendel.

I had once toyed with the idea of making a Grendel pseudo-IAR using a bumpfire stock.

[Klem]

It, and some YouTube gun people like hickok45 who've spoken out against these stocks.


.

Before Youtube came along Hicock45 would just be some old coot with an opinion.

Ever tried correcting him on his Youtube channel? Even the slightest bit of (constructive) technical criticism he deletes your post and bans you. I am surprised the nurses let him have guns. "Mr Hickok, time for your enema!"

[bj139]

I love my guns but don't particularly care about bump stocks. So, if it makes society a tiny bit more safe then sure, let's ban them.

Until this year Pennsylvania would not let hunters hunt with a semi-automatic firearm.

I could have said all semi-autos should be banned because I had no use for them, but I didn't.

I fully supported your gun rights. Just because you have no use for something doesn't mean you should want them banned.

That is the anti-gunners biggest arguement that they use against us, that ... "No one really needs to have a gun".

[JASmith]

The point overlooked by everyone using the "need" argument is the 2A is not about every day needs. It is completely about ensuring that the population can defend against foreign and domestic (including overreaching government) enemies.

Our extensive sporting and recreational shooting opportunities are by-products of that protection.

[Klem]

Until this year Pennsylvania would not let hunters hunt with a semi-automatic firearm.

I could have said all semi-autos should be banned because I had no use for them, but I didn't.

I fully supported your gun rights. Just because you have no use for something doesn't mean you should want them banned.

That is the anti-gunners biggest arguement that they use against us, that ... "No one really needs to have a gun".

That's fine, that's the stance you take and I respect that. That is democracy in action. My thoughts are tat you conveniently misquoting me. I'm not saying that 'No one really needs to have a gun'. I believe not only that we need guns but we should have them. I'm saying, 'No one really needs to have a bump-stock'. If you want Full-auto then go through the process of being vetted by the authorities, for all our safety.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

The point overlooked by everyone using the "need" argument is the 2A is not about every day needs. It is completely about ensuring that the population can defend against foreign and domestic (including overreaching government) enemies.

Our extensive sporting and recreational shooting opportunities are by-products of that protection.

Well stated, JASmith:


(http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/10/0...-safe.html)

[41bear]

With cries of Bump stocks, 60 round mags, suppressors, and other crazy additions to our already over burdened Second Amendment rights I offer this alternate into the root cause of our problem.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ring...388257055/

[biodsl]

With 58 killied and 500+ wounded, somehow I doubt that John Q. Public is going to be convinced guns are not the issue.

I've been asked about three times over the last several days my reaction to this shooting. My reply is always the same. "Thank God he didn't use a truck."