Funny when you recognize the voice of the guy giving the mission brief.
That pistol model with the brace looks interesting.
MP5s have been filling this role for decades in SF, but are worn out, don't have common controls with the M4A1, and are anemic with 9mm.
This is why SOCOM needs a new PDW. Russian have had several different modern PDWs emerge over the years, including ones that fire the 9x39 Subsonic cartridge.
08-27-2017, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 08-27-2017, 03:37 PM by stanc.)
LRRPF52 Wrote:Funny when you recognize the voice of the guy giving the mission brief.
I don't recognize the voice. Who does it sound like to you?
LRRPF52 Wrote:MP5s have been filling this role for decades in SF, but are worn out, don't have common controls with the M4A1, and are anemic with 9mm.
This is why SOCOM needs a new PDW.
Since the MP5 was typically used as an offensive weapon, "Personal Defense Weapon" seems like a somewhat erroneous classification.
If the video is an example of how the new gun would be used, wouldn't it be a lot more accurate to call it a Covert Operations Weapon?
I believe that a SIG MPX 9mm SBR with folding stock would fill the weapon needs for most of the support teams, armored crews, helo crews, etc. I carried a M16/M4 for decades and quickly picked up the "manual of arms" for my SIG MPX SBR. The "tip of the spear" warriors need battle rifles, etc. - the 9mm SBR could be a great solution for those that do not need a battle rifle as primary weapon. Anyone issued a pistol as primary weapon might be better served with a SIG MPX 9mm SBR.
stanc Wrote:I don't recognize the voice. Who does it sound like to you?
Since the MP5 was typically used as an offensive weapon, "Personal Defense Weapon" seems like a somewhat erroneous classification.
If the video is an example of how the new gun would be used, wouldn't it be a lot more accurate to call it a Covert Operations Weapon?
Some units used them for offensive work until the 723s and 727s made it obsolete in that regard.
Other units mainly used them for a few guys on a Team when doing SR (MP5SD3), and ADVON (MP5A3 and MP5K for some). In the ADVON role, it's a PDW all day long, not offensive. Same with SR. It's a compromise scenario option for discreetly taking out things before they get out of control. I'm talking personal experience here, not reading about some peripheral glimmer of a hint about practical application of them, with all the false assumptions that come with that.
Since the MP5s are very worn, outdated, have cumbersome aiming solution mounting issues, and bad ergonomics, it makes sense that units are asking for something more up-to-date that shares commonality with AR15 ergonomics, magazines, firepower, while still retaining the suppressed and subsonic capability of the SD3.
In the SiG video, they're showing a certain type of SR that requires a low profile, concealable system, with similar performance to an M4 within close ranges.
The KAC PDW would be another one to look at, as they have made an AR15 mag-compatible version of it that was at SHOT a few years ago even.
NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
Labelling a gun either 'defensive' or 'offensive' is the tail wagging the dog. It's just a gun - How you plan to use it lends itself to one or the other label at that time. We used the MP5's all day, every day, in all sorts of missions and frankly I don't care to label it one or the other. It's just an utterly reliable, accurate and ergonomically-sound 9mm SMG.
As for the Blackout, it's not as quiet subsonic as the MP5-SD. Burns three times the powder as a 9mm for no more killing power. The heavy 30cal bullets currently used in factory ammo are match bullets designed for higher velocities. They act like monoliths on hitting flesh. Every animal I have taken with a subsonic Blackout is a through-and-through (wasted energy). But, the Blackout does permit supersonic rounds and that is a big advantage in a PDW. If SIG makes a .223 version that would be worth a look.
Klem Wrote:Labelling a gun either 'defensive' or 'offensive' is the tail wagging the dog. It's just a gun - How you plan to use it lends itself to one or the other label at that time. We used the MP5's all day, every day, in all sorts of missions and frankly I don't care to label it one or the other. It's just an utterly reliable, accurate and ergonomically-sound 9mm SMG.
As for the Blackout, it's not as quiet subsonic as the MP5-SD. Burns three times the powder as a 9mm for no more killing power. The heavy 30cal bullets currently used in factory ammo are match bullets designed for higher velocities. They act like monoliths on hitting flesh. Every animal I have taken with a subsonic Blackout is a through-and-through (wasted energy). But, the Blackout does permit supersonic rounds and that is a big advantage in a PDW. If SIG makes a .223 version that would be worth a look.
The 300 BLM (7.62x45) seems to like shorter barrels where the 5.56x45 really needs a barrel longer than 14".
That is where the 300 BLK stands out is its love of shorter barrels.
08-28-2017, 05:44 AM (This post was last modified: 08-28-2017, 07:27 AM by Klem.)
n9nwo Wrote:The 300 BLM (7.62x45) seems to like shorter barrels where the 5.56x45 really needs a barrel longer than 14".
That is where the 300 BLK stands out is its love of shorter barrels.
The reason why Blackout 'seems to like' shorter barrels is because you don't get any more meaningful velocity out of barrels longer than 16". The pressure drops in a large 30cal barrel quickly. This is why manufacturers only sell 16" and shorter. Anything less than 16" however is just your normal less-velocity-per-inch.
A 10" barrel in 5.56 is long enough to be an effective, compact weapon. Below 10" and it arguably starts looking as effective as a 9mm SMG. Both have their roles but if you are looking for maximum effective stopping power in a compact rifle then 10-12" of 5.56 is powerful enough to 200M. Depends on your definition of compact of course and also depends on what you value more; compact or effective? More effective = less compact, More compact = less effective.
300 AAC Blackout is 7.62x35. Maybe you meant that and had a double typo.
5.56 NATO does very well out of 11.5" barrels, and 10.5" with the right projectile.
The 300 Blackout (BLK) is a .30 caliber bullet in a .223 Rem case
The articles by one of the members of this group on PDWs has stated that the goal is to have a weapon that can hit out to 200m with a 5" barrel. Thus 9mm or any other current pistol round is not going to meet the standards.
n9nwo Wrote:The 300 Blackout (BLK) is a .30 caliber bullet in a .223 Rem case
The articles by one of the members of this group on PDWs has stated that the goal is to have a weapon that can hit out to 200m with a 5" barrel. Thus 9mm or any other current pistol round is not going to meet the standards.
I've been shooting it since it was 300 Whisper, way before AAC came along. I was pointing out that the cartridge you described as 300 BLM (7.62x45), is not one I've heard of before.
JD Jones of SSK introduced it a long, long time ago as the 300x221 Fireball. That's where I first saw mention of it, before getting some trigger time with it suppressed. There are people who have been working with the cartridge for many years before the latest generation of the cartridge.
NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
Is there any cartridge capable of being effective at 200M out of a 5" barrel?
I agree, 9mm is pushing it. We used to shoot the MP5 out to 100M with the Hensoldt Wetzlar scope and it was fine, but never more than that. .300BLK out of a 5.5" barrel will be slower than a wet week.
stanc Wrote:Why wouldn't .300 BLK (fired from a 5.5" barrel) be effective out to 200 meters?
I'm thinking a 110gn TAC-X would be doing about 1200fps by the time it gets to 200M (MV = 1,700fps from a 5.5" barrel), and a 24" drop from a 50M zero. Pistol type performance requiring some skill to cope with the rainbow trajectory. 200M is a big ask for such a short barrel.
08-31-2017, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 08-31-2017, 04:08 PM by Kswhitetails.)
Klem Wrote:I'm thinking a 110gn TAC-X would be doing about 1200fps by the time it gets to 200M (MV = 1,700fps from a 5.5" barrel), and a 24" drop from a 50M zero. Pistol type performance requiring some skill to cope with the rainbow trajectory. 200M is a big ask for such a short barrel.
Just a question, but why not a 100 yard zero? Aren't you still in 10" vitals PBR measurements out to 150ish at that point? Then, a simple 5 inch hold at 200? I'm no operator, but I think I could make that work. Of course I haven't done any math, just visualizing the practice in my head.
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