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DJL2 Wrote:LRRP...you better be right!
Seriously, though, I just had a heart to heart talk with myself. American classic or no, I'm going to part ways with my 7mm Rem Mag. I'm pretty confident that a 162 grain VLD (Berger, Hornady, Matrix...) at 3000+ fps offers great down range performance. However, I'm not about to try and smack an Elk at any distance, let alone 1300+ yards...I don't need that sort of performance. What I need is "good enough" performance that I can enjoy shooting and do so economically. I really think the little 6.5 might be just the ticket...more so even than the 6.5 CM (for reasons already stated). In fact, especially with factory ammo, the 6.5 Grendel offers a big performance jump from 5.56 at relatively little cost.
Bottom line, with the right ammo, 6.5 Grendel will get you on target out to 1000-1200 meters from what I can see - there are precious few folks who don't have their needs met there. Maybe if I become a long range hunting junkie at some point...
"Intermediate" cartridges have been and will remain a great choice for GP use. Also, the M80 is hot garbage...color me completely unimpressed, no matter what platforms slings the lead.
This. This right here. Welcome to Grendelville! Pick a house and move right in!
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I just competed in myour first long range rifle match.
Due to range conditions there were two stages that had to be slapped together from scratch., one of which was shooting off a 55 gallon drum on its side for 5 targets, and the only way to get the 6 target at 270 yards (IIRC) 2 MOA target was either set up a tripod for standing or grab hold of the little 3" dia tree for a forward brace.
My 18 Grendel weighs in at 13 pounds, where as the other 50+ bolt gun guys weigh in at 19+ pounds. With two squads behind us, I was one of what appeared to be only 5 other hits on that target, and my remaining time was on par with the other 7 guys in my squad, only had about 30 seconds to move from a sitting position with our pack in our laps for butt stock support, to standing, dope the shot down from 700, and engage. Most guys said screw it, some tried with their 24+ inch barrels and supressors and weight...miss.
The lighter and smaller package of the AR 15 in 6.5 Grendel definitely has the advantage in all day hiking and shooting fatigue.
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'19+ pounds'? Are you sure?
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Klem Wrote:'19+ pounds'? Are you sure? 19lb rifles are pretty common in PRS. Some of the stocks alone weigh 6lbs and up, like the JAE-700.
Guys/gals are shooting Heavy Palma, MTU, and M24 profiles, a lot of 26" 6mm Creedmoors, with most barrels weighing at least 5lbs or more.
Add in a 2.2lbs Defiance action, bottom metal, 10rd mag, bipod, Vortex Razor, rings, muzzle device/suppressor, and you're well on the way to a 20lb rifle.
I noticed this at a match with my .260 gasser on one of the wobbly barricade stages. We had 40mph winds throughout the match, and I couldn't hold my rifle steady from a standing position on that barricade, no matter how tight I pulled on my quick-adjust 2-point sling. I was thinking, "If I had that little Grendel right now, this shot would be done and on to the next shot already."
Wasn't even a long shot, just an extremely difficult position with a heavy rifle.
NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
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6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
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And I thought my 13 lbs savage 308 was heavy
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An M24 is 12lbs empty and 16lbs all-up with scope and full mag (24" - 27" barrels).
Here's a picture of a civilian F Class gun, designed to be shot from the prone in a rest. Shooters pull these monsters out and walk 50 metres from the nearest car park. The weight limit in that class is 8kg (17.6lbs), or 10kg (22lbs) with a fixed bipod. Note the 30" Medium Palma barrel and lead shot glued into the stock to bring it exactly up to 17.5lb limit. You cannot shoot this unsupported and expect to hit anything at distance, with accuracy. Regardless, I think we all agree that 19lbs is looking to be impractical for practical shooting.
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If their guns really are 19lbs+ then I think we can at least agree that's way too heavy for a bolt gun being lugged around in the field. I can only think there must be a lot of supported shooting and short distances to hike without genuine backpacks.
A 24" medium Palma in a McMillan A5 with scope, bipod, sling, plus 10rds in a mag is no more than 13.5lbs (I've just weighed it).
If these guys are turning up to a civilian match with 19lb bolt guns then the first thing that can come off is the suppressor. Go easy on the barrel, scope and trigger...but everything else just holds it together.
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Klem,
Check out the Precision Rifle Blog. They have a great run down an the exact equipment (spoiler, it is as LRRP described above) used by the top 100 competitors in the Precision Rifle Series.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/
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Klem Wrote:An M24 is 12lbs empty and 16lbs all-up with scope and full mag (24" - 27" barrels).
Here's a picture of a civilian F Class gun, designed to be shot from the prone in a rest. Shooters pull these monsters out and walk 50 metres from the nearest car park. The weight limit in that class is 8kg (17.6lbs), or 10kg (22lbs) with a fixed bipod. Note the 30" Medium Palma barrel and lead shot glued into the stock to bring it exactly up to 17.5lb limit. You cannot shoot this unsupported and expect to hit anything at distance, with accuracy. Regardless, I think we all agree that 19lbs is looking to be impractical for practical shooting.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]9626[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9627[/ATTACH]
If their guns really are 19lbs+ then I think we can at least agree that's way too heavy for a bolt gun being lugged around in the field. I can only think there must be a lot of supported shooting and short distances to hike without genuine backpacks.
A 24" medium Palma in a McMillan A5 with scope, bipod, sling, plus 10rds in a mag is no more than 13.5lbs (I've just weighed it).
If these guys are turning up to a civilian match with 19lb bolt guns then the first thing that can come off is the suppressor. Go easy on the barrel, scope and trigger...but everything else just holds it together.
There's an annual match called Steel Safari that covers 3 days down in NM that many of the top PRS shooters like to shoot because it's more fun than any of the local and regional PRS matches. The difference is you are doing a bit of hiking in Southwest US terrain in the summer, covering some distance from station to station. The guys with the heavy rifles they normally shoot in PRS are pretty smoked by the end of each day, lots of flushed faces, redness, signs of early heat issues, dehydration, etc. Everyone carries a small pack, some carry tripods, everyone has some pretty high end LRFs, binos, water, snacks, mags, ammo, and the rifle.
It really pays off to have optimum equipment weight over the long haul throughout each day, as I saw a lot of shooters who were struggling physically with the conditions and weight, unable to focus on the multiple tasks of TGT detection, ranging, remembering where they are, then finding a suitable position to engage them from, while applying all the nuances of long range shooting.
[video=youtube;o9YpHGcj0zc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9YpHGcj0zc[/video]
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For the thread, as a point of reference, if I were to build one "like the pros" in PRS, here's what I'd have (from PRS Blog data):
A Defiance Machine action @ 2.19 lbs (plain Jane)
Manner's Composite PRS-1/PRS-2 @ 3 lbs (notable, because this is a light weight option)
Bartlein Barrel, 26 inches (6x47mm Lapua) @ ~6 lbs (some estimation here, barrel weights can vary considerably)
Vortex Optics Razor HD Gen II @ 3 lbs (48.5 ounces)
Vortex Rings @ .25 lbs (4.6 ounces for a set of two) - again, this is much lighter than a Spuhr (for example)
APA Gen II Little Bastard @ .25 lbs (4.3 ounces)
Raw Total: 14.7 lbs for a "lightweight" setup with no add ons (e.g. sling, suppressor, barricade adapters, etc.)
The SilencerCo Omega is 14 ounches (call it a pound).
Stock selection is huge...a McMillan A5 adds 10 ounces, for example. An MPA chassis (a popular choice) weighs 4.85 lbs...adding nearly two to the base rifle. Running an AICS AX Chassis? 5.6 lbs...2.6 over base. JAE Rem 700 stock? 6 lbs 8 ounces...apparently made with pure lead alloy, 3.67 lbs over stock.
New weights with different stocks:
Rifle w/ McMillan A5 - 15.5 lbs
Rifle w/ MPA chassis - 16 lbs
Rifle w/ AICS AX - 17+ lbs
Rifles w/ JAE finest lead block - 18.5 lbs (or so we think...hard to find a scale to handle this sort of weight)
Now, I didn't include bottom metal, magazines, ammunition, scope levels, etc...lots of little things here and there. These are all components used by the top 100 PRS shooters...not just some dude at the local range doing "tacticool" shooting. There are certainly ways to make things heavier.
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DJL2 Wrote:There are certainly ways to make things heavier.
LOL! Isn't that the truth!
Paul Peloquin
Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?
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I'm no professional shooter. Just a blue collar worker who enjoys a few days at a range each year and hunting deer. I bought my first rifle when I was 16. A Remington 788 308 carbine. Still have it. I've taken a lot of deer with it. Last year I hunted with my first Grendel. Literally shot two doe next to each other just seconds apart. There is no way that I would have been able to get that second shot, and deer, with my boltie 308.
After 35+ years of service, the 308 needs a new scope and magazine. I'll get them eventually, but for now, the little Grendel that could, is my new hunting buddy.
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