Looks like I got a short chamber

[85_Ranger4x4]

If the SAAMI chamber won't run factory ammo it isn't worth seeking out over all the others that are shunned online. If it requires a high end barrel to get a in spec enough SAAMI chamber to run factory ammo then there is a problem with the spec.

AA especially should have the chamber figured out of all people since they took forever and a day to fine tune the specs of the chamber when THEY developed it.

IMO send it back, if they roll over and say it is fine even though it isn't that says a lot about the company.

[rabiddawg]

Ranger, if it were me I would have called AA BEFORE starting a thread on the world wide web. In the relatively short time I have been a member of this forum, I have seen Bill Alexander himself offer advise and even tell one member to send his gun in for a look. AA didn't even build that particular gun.

Imo, AA is a stand up company but they have to be given a chance.

Also, it goes without saying reamers wear. We are talking very minute tollerances here. What if hornady's bullet seater was worn just a bit?

[Lastrites]

Rabiddawg I agree that I too likely would have called prior to a www posting but am glad it was posted as 4 new and to be honest cost wise lower end priced barrels seem to be showing through their experience an issue. And I happen to have one of those currently on order so this thread is of interest to me and I may benefit from its posting and their experience to be aware of a potential issue that is looming in the big brown truck that is going to show up in the couple of weeks. How the manufacture stands behind their product will say more when brought to their attention and I have little doubt that they won't go over and beyond for any correction.

[LR1955]

Guys:

We as Mods will not stop or criticize anyone for posting relevant information about their Grendel to the forum. The OP was polite in his posting and simply stated what was going on so others who may have had the same experience can give him advice.

If you want us to censor guys who post things critical of AA then we will have to do the same for anyone who is critical of any manufacturer.

We have many guys who had big problems with their Grendel related products, from AA through PF, through Les Bear. As long as they remain polite and professional, they can post what they want.

In fact, probably one of the better things in the Grendel Forums is that guys can post problems without concern. Sometimes when enough of the same issue comes up, Alexander has noted it and made changes.

So, if you guys think someone is getting out of hand about it, write one of us and we will take a look.

No big deal.

LR55

[85_Ranger4x4]

I was playing devil's advocate. If this is the norm the norm isn't that good... so it probably isn't the norm (aimed at Sneaky One) And if there is a problem and AA doesn't help you with it, that isn't good either. (aimed at LR1955)

My first post in this thread:

I think you need to talk to AA about it.

Until they do their thing we are all spitting in the wind here. Maybe it was a bad lot of ammo, maybe it was the chamber, on our end we have no way of knowing.

Personally I have a 18" AA barrel on my Grendel spreadsheet so I am curious how this plays out.

[LRRPF52]

If the SAAMI chamber won't run factory ammo it isn't worth seeking out over all the others that are shunned online. If it requires a high end barrel to get a in spec enough SAAMI chamber to run factory ammo then there is a problem with the spec.

AA especially should have the chamber figured out of all people since they took forever and a day to fine tune the specs of the chamber when THEY developed it.

IMO send it back, if they roll over and say it is fine even though it isn't that says a lot about the company.

AA has fixed (usually replaced) several forum members barrels that weren't even AA barrels in the past. Sounds like you're assuming that all their chambers are cut short, when that just isn't the case, and that's assuming this is an issue with the chamber and not ammo. Every company has a product they let out that doesn't meet their standards.

How they deal with it after that determines the reputation of the company.

[LRRPF52]

Rabiddawg I agree that I too likely would have called prior to a www posting but am glad it was posted as 4 new and to be honest cost wise lower end priced barrels seem to be showing through their experience an issue. And I happen to have one of those currently on order so this thread is of interest to me and I may benefit from its posting and their experience to be aware of a potential issue that is looming in the big brown truck that is going to show up in the couple of weeks. How the manufacture stands behind their product will say more when brought to their attention and I have little doubt that they won't go over and beyond for any correction.

I've built many uppers for people and myself using the new 16" fluted barrels from AA. We've never seen a short chamber, guns run out of the gate, no FTExtract, accuracy has been better than a lot of bolt guns I've shot.

If one were to look at all the samples in the market, this would be a fluke, if the chamber is at fault.

[85_Ranger4x4]

I was playing devil's advocate. If this is the norm the norm isn't that good... so it probably isn't the norm (aimed at Sneaky One) And if there is a problem and AA doesn't help you with it, that isn't good either. (aimed at LR1955)

My first post in this thread:



Until they do their thing we are all spitting in the wind here. Maybe it was a bad lot of ammo, maybe it was the chamber, on our end we have no way of knowing.

Personally I have a 18" AA barrel on my Grendel spreadsheet so I am curious how this plays out.

AA has fixed (usually replaced) several forum members barrels that weren't even AA barrels in the past. Sounds like you're assuming that all their chambers are cut short, when that just isn't the case, and that's assuming this is an issue with the chamber and not ammo. Every company has a product they let out that doesn't meet their standards.

How they deal with it after that determines the reputation of the company.

Far from that.

[Jakal]

Bump for future reference.

[pajasonc]

Guys:

We as Mods will not stop or criticize anyone for posting relevant information about their Grendel to the forum. The OP was polite in his posting and simply stated what was going on so others who may have had the same experience can give him advice.

If you want us to censor guys who post things critical of AA then we will have to do the same for anyone who is critical of any manufacturer.

We have many guys who had big problems with their Grendel related products, from AA through PF, through Les Bear. As long as they remain polite and professional, they can post what they want.

In fact, probably one of the better things in the Grendel Forums is that guys can post problems without concern. Sometimes when enough of the same issue comes up, Alexander has noted it and made changes.

So, if you guys think someone is getting out of hand about it, write one of us and we will take a look.

No big deal.

LR55

I didn't call manufacturer because I was not sure the barrel was %100 short chambered and I didn't know if someone would suggest something that could be done to fix the issue , without me having to tear it apart ,ship it back and put it back together. Going from previous post it seemed likely my barrel is short chambered as the hornady rounds stick, wolf ammo doesn't. I also didn't notice any high pressure signs so I didn't know if I could shoot another 200 rounds and the chamber would open up a bit or if it was unsafe and it should be sent back right away. Which is why I was asking.

But I did also add that maybe the grendel 2 chamber wasn't as bad as people have made it out to be because there seems to be a lot of post around about people getting short chambered saami barrels. From what I gather the saami spec is best but it must be much harder to make barrels that are in spec with the compound throat.

[pajasonc]

AA has fixed (usually replaced) several forum members barrels that weren't even AA barrels in the past. Sounds like you're assuming that all their chambers are cut short, when that just isn't the case, and that's assuming this is an issue with the chamber and not ammo. Every company has a product they let out that doesn't meet their standards.

How they deal with it after that determines the reputation of the company.

LRRPF52 should I call AA and tell them about the barrel or try another lot of hornady ammo? Like I said the upper runs fine normally I had two issues both when I didn't let the bolt slam forward, I thought maybe the upper just needed broke in. Then I read your post on AR15.com on how to check for a short chamber. Tried it with wolf and it fell right out. Tried both hornady sst and amax and the round stuck and left a small circle on bullet near the tip and require a very light tap from a cleaning rod to free them. Accuracy with all ammo has been really good brass and primers look ok Been busy all week with work so I haven't had time to call AA.

[LRRPF52]

LRRPF52 should I call AA and tell them about the barrel or try another lot of hornady ammo? Like I said the upper runs fine normally I had two issues both when I didn't let the bolt slam forward, I thought maybe the upper just needed broke in. Then I read your post on AR15.com on how to check for a short chamber. Tried it with wolf and it fell right out. Tried both hornady sst and amax and the round stuck and left a small circle on bullet near the tip and require a very light tap from a cleaning rod to free them. Accuracy with all ammo has been really good brass and primers look ok Been busy all week with work so I haven't had time to call AA.

If you're not happy with something, especially functionality with factory ammo, I assumed you had already contacted them.

If you're seeing rifling engagement on the projectile, it won't fall out of the chamber, and requires a cleaning rod to remove it, that sounds like it's jamming the lands.

If you can't extract it with the charge handle, there's a problem, but it's easily fixed with a finishing reamer and polishing of the chamber.

It happens to the best of them.

[LRRPF52]

I didn't call manufacturer because I was not sure the barrel was %100 short chambered and I didn't know if someone would suggest something that could be done to fix the issue , without me having to tear it apart ,ship it back and put it back together. Going from previous post it seemed likely my barrel is short chambered as the hornady rounds stick, wolf ammo doesn't. I also didn't notice any high pressure signs so I didn't know if I could shoot another 200 rounds and the chamber would open up a bit or if it was unsafe and it should be sent back right away. Which is why I was asking.

But I did also add that maybe the grendel 2 chamber wasn't as bad as people have made it out to be because there seems to be a lot of post around about people getting short chambered saami barrels. From what I gather the saami spec is best but it must be much harder to make barrels that are in spec with the compound throat.

There are several guys with unknown or Grumble 2 chambers who have contacted me via PM with short chamber issues, including excessive high pressure signs. Some are reluctant to send them back because they are shooting so well (this is common when the bullet doesn't jump at all). I've seen it on other cartridges as well with rifles I have owned or that people have brought to me, in .223 Wylde and .308 Win.

One particular .223 Wylde from one of the most renowned companies for making SPR profile barrels shoots lights out with 77gr and 69gr OTMs, but jams the lands and blows primers with M193. Owner asked me what he should do. My recommendation was either shoot the target ammo with longer ogive radii, or have it reamed so he can shoot the tangent ogive 55gr FMJBT fodder and possible lose the accuracy he has (shoots bug holes with 69gr SMK and 77gr SMK).

So this type of thing is not limited to any particular chamber. Another problem with the variant chambers that have no industry standard to them is that you're at the mercy of the reamer maker to tell you what the spec is, and they can and do change it to fit their interests.

How do we even know what the variant chambers are held to for throat length? They certainly aren't being held to set length in production, as I've seen them run anywhere from ogive contact at 2.250", to 2.340" with the same bullet. One would be fine from the mag with that particular bullet, and one has to be single-loaded to get even near .020" off the lands.

With a properly-cut SAAMI chamber, I can load everything from an 85gr Sierra HP Varminter at mag length, to 140gr AMAX at mag length, no jamming the lands.

All the 123gr bullets shoot great for me, as do 129gr SST, 129gr ABLR, in multiple barrels, all run at mag length COLs.

That's the whole purpose of the SAAMI chamber, to work well with a wide range of bullets when loaded to AR15 mag-restricted COLs.

If the leade is short in any of the cartridge chambers, you will see a certain bullet profile work well, usually more streamlined target bullets or shorter bullets, while longer and heavier bullets with an ogive that hits the lands early will jam.

If any rifle you have is this way and you want it to be able to shoot tangent ogives or some of the heavier bullets loaded to published COLs, you can have your chamber finish-reamed and polished.

[AZBackcountry]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9020[/ATTACH]
I had a problem with AA. Bad chamber due to contracted barrels that they sell. The 20" SS Heavy barrel with matching bolt was a 1:9 twist instead of the 1:7.5 that I ordered. I ASSUMED low priced barrel the twist must have been a misprint. I used different factory loaded ammo Hornady and AA. All of it shot shot horrible. I called, "Yup, send it back ASAP". I had to pay the shipping and received a barrel with no markings at all from AA that is so poorly chambered that it mis-forms the brass sidewall to egg shape and sticks coming out. A Smith friend of mine said that it was a dull reamer cutting the chamber. The picture is Hornady 123 Amax factory ammo at 100 yards. Bill doesn't run AA any more. They told me that there is no accuracy guarantee. I bought a JP barrel with matching bolt, installed it on the exact same Areo Enhanced upper with Leupold Mark AR 4-12x40mm Mil PEPR mount that I never removed and same Areo lower. Shoots 3/8 groups with the same ammo. Shame on AA.

[bakabone25]

There are several guys with unknown or Grumble 2 chambers who have contacted me via PM with short chamber issues, including excessive high pressure signs. Some are reluctant to send them back because they are shooting so well (this is common when the bullet doesn't jump at all). I've seen it on other cartridges as well with rifles I have owned or that people have brought to me, in .223 Wylde and .308 Win.

One particular .223 Wylde from one of the most renowned companies for making SPR profile barrels shoots lights out with 77gr and 69gr OTMs, but jams the lands and blows primers with M193. Owner asked me what he should do. My recommendation was either shoot the target ammo with longer ogive radii, or have it reamed so he can shoot the tangent ogive 55gr FMJBT fodder and possible lose the accuracy he has (shoots bug holes with 69gr SMK and 77gr SMK).

So this type of thing is not limited to any particular chamber. Another problem with the variant chambers that have no industry standard to them is that you're at the mercy of the reamer maker to tell you what the spec is, and they can and do change it to fit their interests.

How do we even know what the variant chambers are held to for throat length? They certainly aren't being held to set length in production, as I've seen them run anywhere from ogive contact at 2.250", to 2.340" with the same bullet. One would be fine from the mag with that particular bullet, and one has to be single-loaded to get even near .020" off the lands.

With a properly-cut SAAMI chamber, I can load everything from an 85gr Sierra HP Varminter at mag length, to 140gr AMAX at mag length, no jamming the lands.

All the 123gr bullets shoot great for me, as do 129gr SST, 129gr ABLR, in multiple barrels, all run at mag length COLs.

That's the whole purpose of the SAAMI chamber, to work well with a wide range of bullets when loaded to AR15 mag-restricted COLs.

If the leade is short in any of the cartridge chambers, you will see a certain bullet profile work well, usually more streamlined target bullets or shorter bullets, while longer and heavier bullets with an ogive that hits the lands early will jam.

If any rifle you have is this way and you want it to be able to shoot tangent ogives or some of the heavier bullets loaded to published COLs, you can have your chamber finish-reamed and polished.

What would be the best place to send a barrel to have the finish-ream and polish done?

[bakabone25]

Im pretty sure my odin 18" is also a short chamber. Even the factory eld hangs up slightly in the chamber.

[Commander184]

Check your bolt face depth first. I cried wolf once apon a time.

[diddlyv]

baka have you spoken to Odin??? Other threads indicate they stand behind their work. I don't know personally as my 20 inch odin shoots the factory 123 SSTs just fine and all the groups with it have been sub MOA so I have not had to deal with their customer service. They were most helpful getting my order processed before they actually went live on the website with a new shipment of 20 inchers when they were listed out of stock. As I had asked them about it several weeks before they got the shipment.

[diddlyv]

Not sure if close to rifling is always necessary my Rem 40XBR shoots about 1/2 min with 190, 180 175 and 155 SMKs the 190s don't touch the rifling and the 155s sure as heck dont get anywhere near close. Generally seat everything so the base is close to the base of the neck so the 190s have a whole lot of bullet sticking out the 155s not so much. Guessing the chamber has a pretty long lead but really close to .308 in diameter so the bullets dont get much of a chance to go anywhere but straight.

[bwaites]

Gentleman,

I just had email conversations with Alexander regarding this issue, and there have been no phone calls regarding short chambers recently. I just received and built a 16" last night that shoots 1 inch groups at 200 yards and sub 1 MOA at 400 yards with factory Hornady Black ammo, so I don't believe its an epidemic.

PLEASE call and discuss any issues with the manufacturer, whether they be AA or any other.