MY Accuracy Sucks

[Rickc]

I disagree with the bipod being better than a front bag. My experience is that bags and rests beat bipods for accuracy. Bipods however are field expedient.

I agree with the fixed-stock choice for best accuracy in an AR. I also use automatic alignment where you settle the gun in the rest and bags point at the target and then suddenly relax. See how far the gun moves off aim and readjust and try to minimise this. Do this a few times prior to shooting and each time there will be less movement when you release tension as you realise how much you are putting pressure on the gun from various angles. Make sure it can track smoothly in the recoil by pushing it forwards and backwards, slightly. These are relatively light guns so you have to lock them in to prevent jump.

With a light recoiling rifle like the grendel try free recoil off the bags especially if you have a heavy barrel target rifle.

Set the rifle on the rest and use the rest and bags to get proper sight alignment not your hold on the.gun. Make sure the rear bag is directly under where your cheek contacts the stock and put no more pressure on the stock than required to get proper sight alignment. Make sure the rifle is free to slide back in recoil without hanging up on anything on the bags or rest. Make absolutely sure that you have.removed all parallax from your sight picture. Position your shoulder behind the stock to catch it in recoil but don't put any pressure on the stock.

Now with a steady sight picture and with no pressure on the rifle place the first joint of.your trigger finger on the trigger and begin to put pressure on the trigger straight back until it fires. It should suprise you when it goes off.

You should be able to just slide the rifle forward with your.shoulder back in position for the same sight.picture.

Do it properly 5 times in a row and.it.should be.the best group you have shot.

Warning !!! Don't try this with your 7 mag

[SG4247]

Stop crimping your brass!

Need the neck sized .003"-.005" smaller than the bullet diameter.

Preferably, make all necks the same, so that all bullets seat with the same effort.

[Klem]

With a light recoiling rifle like the grendel try free recoil off the bags especially if you have a heavy barrel target rifle.

Set the rifle on the rest and use the rest and bags to get proper sight alignment not your hold on the.gun. Make sure the rear bag is directly under where your cheek contacts the stock and put no more pressure on the stock than required to get proper sight alignment. Make sure the rifle is free to slide back in recoil without hanging up on anything on the bags or rest. Make absolutely sure that you have.removed all parallax from your sight picture. Position your shoulder behind the stock to catch it in recoil but don't put any pressure on the stock.

Now with a steady sight picture and with no pressure on the rifle place the first joint of.your trigger finger on the trigger and begin to put pressure on the trigger straight back until it fires. It should suprise you when it goes off.

You should be able to just slide the rifle forward with your.shoulder back in position for the same sight.picture.

Do it properly 5 times in a row and.it.should be.the best group you have shot.

Warning !!! Don't try this with your 7 mag

No mate, that's not going to work. Your confidence belies your knowledge of the AR15. You post confidently about reloading associated with heavier bolt-gun rigs and I have no doubt you have experience here but not all shooting and reloading principles transfer to the lighter AR15.

If you had experience with AR15's you would not have posted this so I have to ask...Do you have one?

[Rickc]

No mate, that's not going to work. Your confidence belies your knowledge of the AR15. You post confidently about reloading associated with heavier bolt-gun rigs and I have no doubt you have experience here but not all shooting and reloading principles transfer to the lighter AR15.

If you had experience with AR15's you would not have posted this so I have to ask...Do you have one?

Quite a few. I have an hbar .223 with the PRI delta Forearm that works free recoil quite well. My AR turbo 40 with a 26" kraiger barrel, bagrider forearm and PRS stock national match trigger rides the bags like a benchrest rifle. For my 18" JP lightweight i have a A2 stock with bagrider and a detachable front bag rider. It rides the bags acceptably.

Average group with the turbo 40

[IMG][/IMG]

[Klem]

Rick, thanks for that.

When visitors turned up at the range interested in joining we typically invited them to shoot a few rounds through someone's F-Class gun (unless they looked like a fruit cake). They would get down behind an 8kg rifle with a 3" wide forestock and a heavy varmint or Palma 30" barrel which had been shooting for score all afternoon and pull the trigger. Typically they would get a bullseye every time. Not a V-Bull but at least a bullseye. Ironically most would go away and we'd never see them again - probably wondering where the challenge was in all this.

To make sure it weighed heavier at the front some of us would even channel out the stock and fill it with lead shot encased with resin.

Now, try the same thing in with a 4kg gun with a rounded foreguard and a centre-of-gravity designed for carry and it will jump all over the place and jerk around the barrel axis due to the opposing moment of the barrel's rifling not being checked by a wide, flat front and the shooters hold (or a muzzle brake with offset ports).



If your hands-off doctrine for best ever groups was universal it would be in every military shooting pam across the free world...but it is not. The reason being, assault rifle's are too light. You have to lock them in to get the best results. Horses for courses...what works in Bench Rest does not always translate into AR platform. Heck, even with 8kg guns riding the rests you still need a modicum of control to get the best results.


(apologies for ignoring your 'average' group using this technique. If it helps, I don't post mine. It's the internet and anything can be claimed and posted, and regularly is).

[Rickc]

Klem

I enjoy your post and i believe.you are a very knowledgeable shooter.

I really have.no reason to lie. If you research Robert Whitley's 6mm AR turbo 40 that group is pretty typical.

Also if.you check out his bag rider you will see that it gives an AR a 3" wide forearm like.my bench guns.

I agree i would never use this technique with a standard AR like my stock 5.56 truck gun. But.you build.an AR with a hbar 20" barrel and it will have plenty of.weight forward to track on the bags.

I have gone away from the.12# AR. Only good for.bench. but even my 8# grendel with the bag rider tracks very well.

Try it you will like it

[Klem]

Fit an ultra heavy and/or unusually long barrel to an AR, and then a 3" wide foreguard and you are morphing it into a different gun that compromises the spirit of the original design, which is a combat rifle. It becomes unsuited for the military and hunting. Guys had golf caddy frames to carry their heavy rests and F-Class guns to the mound. Experimental/Unlimited Bench Rest discipline...where does it end? It is easy to morph a light weight AR frame and then enjoy the better groups and different shooting techniques. Even better when your sole focus is accuracy at the expense of everything else. Now sling the same rig and win an Olympic style biathlon or climb up and down caving ladders and swing that around in room combat.

I note the frustration others sometimes have that the 6.5 Grendel cartridge out of an AR15 doesn't go as far as a 6.5Creedmore, or shoot consistently tight groups like a bolt gun. Spend enough money and change the gun and calibre and you can regularly shoot the groups you posted as 'average'. But you have to admit, your hands-off shooting technique will not get you the best groups from the sort of AR's most forum members use (and undoubtedly not the AR the person who started the thread looking for advice has). As for trying the technique myself, I have, and it did not get me the best groups my 8kg target rifle was capable of. So, even with heavier target rifles it still pays to have to have some control over the gun. This forum is not about bench rest guns.

Horses for courses.

[Rickc]

Different strokes for different folks

Don't think many on this forum will be carrying their grendels into battle either

Works for me

[Klem]

Don't think many on this forum will be carrying their grendels into battle either

Probably not.

[Rickc]

Most will be punching paper on the rifle.range. this is the target and competition forum. I believe many on this forum have bought hbar barrel profiles. You know very well how impertant a consistent hold is for.accuracy. Something i have.found that is very difficult for inexperienced shooters. Especially with a lighter gun.

[Klem]

Most will be punching paper on the rifle.range. this is the target and competition forum. I believe many on this forum have bought hbar barrel profiles. You know very well how impertant a consistent hold is for.accuracy. Something i have.found that is very difficult for inexperienced shooters. Especially with a lighter gun.

I would be careful implying you are more experienced than 'inexperienced shooters'. You are now immortalised at the range complex I attend.

Against my better judgement I decided to try the Rick's Hands-Off technique today, if only to prove you wrong. I used a 16" Recon Rifle in 5.56. I followed the 'best ever group' technique on this thread and let rip with a 5 round full-auto burst. It attracted some attention from others nearby. Where I shoot full-auto from an assault rifle is considered undisciplined and wasteful. Even more curious from a rifle with no select fire (Giessele SSA-E). One more 4 round burst to confirm it was bump firing and by then I had a small crowd around me giving me sh*t.

After the explanation the jokes started. Ricks 'Best Group' Technique and the 'Rick Technique'. If you are self deprecating it wouldn't be so bad but I'm guessing probably not.

To the rest of the Forum, if you want a cheap, dangerous thrill then follow Rick's advice on this thread.

Rick, I notice you like giving advice but have yet to ask for it. Please dial it back. More listening and less talking. Buy a 6.5 Grendel in an AR15 chassis and spend some time getting used to it. Experts like 55 and 52 are happy to help with any questions you might have.

[Rickc]

Oh well

Would.have thought someone.with your.experience.would.have.better.sense than that

You really should have.that.rifle examined.by a competent gunsmith

[Klem]

What an extraordinary reply.

Let's consider what happened. You gave dodgy advice to the Forum and it's come back to bite you. You then blame me for listening to you and the gun I was using. Why don't you take responsibility for the advice you gave? It's plainly obvious you gave it so you may as well. How hard is it to acknowledge you made a mistake?

As for me, I'm happy to admit I didn't see it coming. If that means I am not as experienced as you think you are, or assume I am then hey, happy to say I learned something new today. The bump firing from the rest makes sense but I didn't see it coming. Does the rifle need to be examined by a competent gunsmith? Swallow your pride and stop digging yourself deeper. You know about bolt guns and re-loading but have little experience with AR's and this calibre. How about confining yourself to advising others on what you know, and asking questions about what you don't know.

[A5BLASTER]

Rickc not to come off rude but sir I'm not what others would call a high skilled shooter but hit what I aim at and shoot great groups but even I can see your advice is not very good.

But I will be the first to state I think this tread is getting off topic and that is not right to the OP who is looking for help.

[Rickc]

Klem

You did an experiment with a.predetermined outcome

Doesn't change my opinion one bit

Bet you did attract some attention. Probably pretty embarrassing. And using me to redirect the scrutiny was a great plan.

[LR1955]

I would be careful implying you are more experienced than 'inexperienced shooters'. You are now immortalised at the range complex I attend.

Against my better judgement I decided to try the Rick's Hands-Off technique today, if only to prove you wrong. I used a 16" Recon Rifle in 5.56. I followed the 'best ever group' technique on this thread and let rip with a 5 round full-auto burst. It attracted some attention from others nearby. Where I shoot full-auto from an assault rifle is considered undisciplined and wasteful. Even more curious from a rifle with no select fire (Giessele SSA-E). One more 4 round burst to confirm it was bump firing and by then I had a small crowd around me giving me sh*t.

After the explanation the jokes started. Ricks 'Best Group' Technique and the 'Rick Technique'. If you are self deprecating it wouldn't be so bad but I'm guessing probably not.

To the rest of the Forum, if you want a cheap, dangerous thrill then follow Rick's advice on this thread.

Rick, I notice you like giving advice but have yet to ask for it. Please dial it back. More listening and less talking. Buy a 6.5 Grendel in an AR15 chassis and spend some time getting used to it. Experts like 55 and 52 are happy to help with any questions you might have.

Klem:

How can you bump fire using a free recoil technique? The rifle is moving away from the trigger finger to the extent the trigger guard or stock allows. Or did the free recoil actuate the sear?

I don't mess around if I have to load test with a semi auto blaster. No matter if it weighs fifteen pounds or six pounds. I use a pretty solid hold in a pretty solid position. My theory is that if the rifle or carbine is held firmly enough, it will go back into position quickly and can take a trigger pull problem without moving the blaster. From a bench or prone using bags, I normally put a lot of pressure down on the stock and will pull it into my shoulder as needed to settle out any movement I see through the optic. Isometric hold, not a lot of muscular input. For the bench I will spend my time setting up my position so I fit into it and thus can use isometric tension to my advantage. Biggest problems I have had normally involve benches that are not solid enough or are not cut to fit a shooter, and stools that are not adjustable. The latter is easily fixed by buying a stool that one can adjust.

I have tried the free recoil thing Rick describes using some pretty heavy prone match rifles. Had a hard time calling my shots and never really got performance for some reason. So I end up testing my prone rifles from the prone in a sling, normally using an optic. I have tested loads using the irons too but the optic lets me call my shots with more precision. Have always trusted my shooting and calls more with these prone rifles when shooting in position, with sling, from the prone.

Kind of strange to me too that I am perfectly comfortable blasting with a gas gun off a solid bench. Can call my shots well and am highly confident in my position and technique. Not so with a bolt gun. Need to put on a jacket, sling, mitt, etc and go prone. I will shoot a bolt gun prone using a bipod if I must but would not trust it to test loads. Must just be years of shooting with a sling.

Have doubled with gas guns. Never fired a five shot string that way though. Cool.

LR55

[Rickc]

I believe it is all what you are.comfortable with. I have never shot prone in my life. .

From thd bench I adjust the front.rest for elevation the rear bag for windage, i just automaticly clutch the rear bag with my left hand fine tuning elevation by squeezing or relaxing the bag. My right hand is on the rifle grip as light.as i possibly can.

Now do i use this technique sighting in my .308 hunting rifle or my .300 WSM. NO!! In that case i use a lead sled.for.load development.

i like to sight in standing with a rolled up coat or backpack lots of times off the hood of the truck. Not shooting for groups just verifying sight-in. Wrap that sling tightly around my arm pull that stock tightly into my shoulder and squeeze that shot off.

I hate taking heavy recoiling rifles to the range but for the last month before the season i always take them. Fire one shot. That cold bore shot. Make sure it is.zeroed for.that one.

As far as bolt guns and AR's go. Bolts are the work horses and the AR's are toys. Bolts are easy to get.to shoot. An AR is a challenge.

Why anyone would even bother to shoot a 16" noodle barrel off a bench is beyond me. Getting one to consistently shoot MOA is pretty unlikely. Now even with a 20" hbar MOA is no small feat and .5 MOA consistently is exceptional.

If i couldn't get my 6BR bolt gun in the 2's or better consistently i would be greatly surprised

[Retro]

No so far I have never seen the need to. It's certainly something worth looking at in the future. I looked up both procedures and I can make my own lapping tool. When this gun went together it was a tight fit so I really doubt that bedding is needed.

Did you lap the reciver face and bed the barrel.

[Sputnik]

Klem:

How can you bump fire using a free recoil technique? The rifle is moving away from the trigger finger to the extent the trigger guard or stock allows. Or did the free recoil actuate the sear?LR55

I wish we would get off the testosterone scale and help the OP. How can this happen? Embarrassed to say this technique caused a two shot string of "auto fire" not once but twice as I was trying to be sooo smooth and shoot a good group. The butt stock apparently bounced forward enough after it met my shoulder to cause a second trigger pull on its own. As suggested, hold your rifle firmly. Can we move on?!

[Sputnik]

In accordance with Rick's procedure from his post: "Position your shoulder behind the stock to catch it in recoil but don't put any pressure on the stock." I am guessing my shoulder was too close? I do not recommend this technique for an AR, as it did get the attention of the Range Officer.