Ahh... I think we need to get marijuana legalized.

[coastguardchas]

so legalize pot? are you stupid? increase the dui's driving around? check colo's problems now.. CGC

[Drift]

Stupid?.. Me?... Sure...probably. My wife sure thinks so. But I do try and keep an open mind. When I see another group making political headway while ours/mine is loosing so much ground, I look at that group and try and see what I/we can learn from them. After all, if gun owners are so much smarter than the pot heads, why are they succeeding while we are failing? I am saying that if we frame the argument for our 2nd Amendments Rights as akin to to their pot rights..then we deserve at least as much consideration at the ballot box as they do.

[stanc]

Well they say it is anyway, the courts have ruled repeatedly that driving is a right. But a mis-truth repeated often enough....

What is your basis for claiming it is a "mis-truth"?

[stanc]

Stupid?.. Me?... Sure...probably. My wife sure thinks so. But I do try and keep an open mind. When I see another group making political headway while ours/mine is loosing so much ground, I look at that group and try and see what I/we can learn from them. After all, if gun owners are so much smarter than the pot heads, why are they succeeding while we are failing? I am saying that if we frame the argument for our 2nd Amendments Rights as akin to to their pot rights..then we deserve at least as much consideration at the ballot box as they do.

You're not the least bit stupid for keeping an open mind and seeking to learn from the success of other special interest groups.

[cory]

so legalize pot? are you stupid? increase the dui's driving around? check colo's problems now.. CGC

Well that^ really contributed a lot to this conversation. :/

[LR1955]

Guys:

Keep it focused, please.

LR55

[Drift]

With due respect, CGCs remark was appropriate; it showed a mindset we need to understand and change if we are to keep our 2nd Amendment rights. Sure, a few bad apples will misuse their Rights(weather that misuse of Rights is to operate a car while intoxicated or a firearm irresponsibility) but it's intolerable someone in authority would try to revoke those rights for us all. We all need to understand that mis use of our Freedoms and Libertys can lead to messy results.. Like car crashes or shootings.,,, We need to further understand and combat the notion that painting us all with such a broad brush is tolerable. The slippery slope here is clear..Millions of people now can not buy firearms because they have a card that says they may use medical marijuana from time to time. I have a different card.. It says I may hunt from time to time. It is inconsistent with the Constitution (and intolerable as well as inconceivable to me )that anyone should revoke either card or limit my liberty, just because someone somewhere behaved illegally or irresponsibility.

[BMWRider]

The mis-truth is that driving is a privilege. We as a society now believe that it is because we are told over and over this is the case. Imagine if the founders had been told by the British that driving was a privilege?

[JASmith]

I am very sure that one coukd research the topic and find that the protected right is that of travel and movemlent.

Operating a motor vehicle is a privilege that can readily be revoked by the driver's state.

[stanc]

Operating a motor vehicle is a privilege that can readily be revoked by the driver's state.

The government determines and defines what is a right and what is a privilege.

Since both can be suspended, denied, and revoked, I don't understand why people continue to believe they are different.

[cory]

The mis-truth is that driving is a privilege. We as a society now believe that it is because we are told over and over this is the case. Imagine if the founders had been told by the British that driving was a privilege?

You are correct, driving is a right on YOUR private property. Which is why you do not need a license. The owner of property has the right to regulate their property up to the extent that it does not deny someone else their right to Life (includes property rights).

Roads are public property. Therefore, the people of the state, the owners of those roads, have the right to regulate those roads. They have done so by issuing the privilege to use those roads in the form of a license to individuals that meet their requirements.

As an individual of a state, if you don't like those requirements you have every right to lobby your state government to change or abolish them.

[BMWRider]

Anything that requires due process to be revoked is a right, a privilege is something granted and taken without due process. Hunting on state land is a privilege (not that I agree that it should be) and does not require due process to be taken away. To get back on topic, since the state now determines who may own firearms, charges us for the privilege of owning said devices and imposes criteria which we must follow in order to own firearms (age, background, and now no cannabis card) I suppose firearms ownership will soon become a privilege as well. If the "privilege" for ownership and Constitutional carry can be taken away with a cannabis card, certain VA disability ratings, and certain social security statuses, is there any reason it cannot be taken away?

[cory]

Anything that requires due process to be revoked is a right...

Negative, Sir Negative. The implications of this being true is that the government gets to decide what your Rights are. Rights are unalienable given to you by your creator, not the government or any mortal.

Try it this way. Rights require due process to be revoked.

[JASmith]

Negative, Sir Negative. The implications of this being true is that the government gets to decide what your Rights are. Rights are unalienable given to you by your creator, not the government or any mortal.

Try it this way. Rights require due process to be revoked.

+1 Well said!

[BMWRider]

So reversing the order of my words changes the meaning?

[BMWRider]

Personally I am not particularly crazy about licensing of any right, whether it be concealed carry, driving or any other God given right. I am unwilling to argue simple semantics regarding this. The point I was making is that the state calling something a privilege does not make it so. Anytime a right is licensed it can then be taken away, making it a gift bestowed by your government. Perhaps a good reading of the US and your state Constitutions are in order along with many of the supporting documents. The fact that you are willing to concede that the state has the POWER to regulate individual rights through licensing means that you do not have the same understanding of Constitution that I do.


BTW, rights are granted to individuals by virtue of their creation and I believe by their creator, powers are what governments are GIVEN by we the people. To state that government has a "right" is to allow for the acceptance of the concept that rights may be held communally, thereby endorsing the gun grabbers logic that the second amendment is a communally held right and not an individual right. Further to endorse the legislative process and democracy as a means by which to be afforded my rights ignores that fact that the United States is not a democracy but a republic where the rights of the minority are supposed to be zealously guarded.

[cory]

Sir we do solemnly agree on a philosophical level here. However, there are some errors in your thoughts. Allow me to explain myself, please.

First it seems you think of Government as some separate entity. You are the government and so is everyone else of this country. "government of the people, by the people, for the people" Our form of government is an conglomerate made up of the people it represents. Therefore, everything the government owns you own in part, everything the government does you have a level of responsibility for the action. This is true for your federal and your state government.

Now lets look at Rights as define in the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They specify these 3 in this order as they encompass all Rights and your Rights fall into this order of precedence. Furthermore you must understand that property rights fall within your Right to Life. Thus your Property (Life) Rights supersede my Right to Liberty. I cannot use your property without your consent and it is within your rights to regulate how that property is to be used.

This is why the people who own the public roads have the right to regulate through a licensing system and revoke your license if they so choice. Fortunately we don't allow this to be an arbitrary process because of certain legislation.

Now there is not justification for the government regulating your right to Bear Arms. The Constitution was Amended before ratification of the states to prevent such a thing.

[cory]

So reversing the order of my words changes the meaning?

Yes sir words do have meaning and the order in which you present them have meaning as well.

[stanc]

Anything that requires due process to be revoked is a right, a privilege is something granted and taken without due process.

Since the definition of "unalienable right" is something that cannot be taken away, and since so-called "rights" CAN be restricted, revoked, or taken away, I fail to see any practical difference between rights and privileges.

To get back on topic, since the state now determines who may own firearms, charges us for the privilege of owning said devices and imposes criteria which we must follow in order to own firearms (age, background, and now no cannabis card) I suppose firearms ownership will soon become a privilege as well.

Since the state has been doing all of those things for upwards of a century, hasn't firearms ownership effectively been a privilege for a long time?

If the "privilege" for ownership and Constitutional carry can be taken away with a cannabis card, certain VA disability ratings, and certain social security statuses, is there any reason it cannot be taken away?

Nope. It depends entirely upon what laws are passed and enforced.

[stanc]

Personally I am not particularly crazy about licensing of any right, whether it be concealed carry, driving or any other God given right.

When and where did God say he gave us those, or any other, rights?

The point I was making is that the state calling something a privilege does not make it so.

Actually, it does. The state has the power to enforce its classification of something being a privilege.

Anytime a right is licensed it can then be taken away, making it a gift bestowed by your government.

Precisely.