Having a Vision
#21
OK, now I am comfortable that there is more to Arnold than a few generic steps that are simplistic at best. I am keen to hear more about relaxation and centering techniques and we can forget about focussing on the person and his exploits.

The distinction between fine and gross motor skills are familiar to me. Certainly in IPSC handgun shooting where there is a conscious effort at elite level to focus on the trigger finger which requires fine motor skills while the rest of the hand/arm/body using gross motor skills requires less conscious attention. Bearing in mind fine motor skills degrade in situation of nervous tension (combat, competition) along with other physiological responses such as elevated heart rate, adrenaline, sweating, shaking and ocular occlusion (Tunnel Vision). When we are stressed we lose peripheral vision, replaced by Tunnel Vision' which is the brain deciding to focus only on what you are directly looking at when the body 'attends' (psychology definition meaning to move you body posture to best effect when encountering a stimulus that triggers the IAOR response; Involuntary Association Orientation Reflex. IAOR = anything that is a potential threat, novel, unusual or surprising. The IAOR is a reflexive action that is a vestige of our role in the food chain as an apex predator). This would explain why competition trigger weights might not be a good idea for combat shooters and hunters. A case study of this is the NYPD decision to adopt a trigger bar in their Glocks that mimicked the 12lb pull of their previous revolvers. It is called a New York Trigger however was only used in the transition period. A standard Glock has a 5.5lb 'Safe Action' pull; Safe Action being half way between a long double action and a short single action trigger. The theory being that if a person trains for most of their career with a 12lb trigger then in the heat of a real scenario when stress causes fine motor skills to degrade the officer does not notice they have pulled their Glock trigger beyond 5lbs in preparation to fire, with all the potential for accidents to happen. There are now two NY Triggers; NY1 and NY2. I understand one is 8.5lbs and the other 12lbs with departments deciding what is the best compromise between safety and accuracy vis-à-vis the quality of their personnel. The lightest after market trigger from people like Ghost lowers the Glock to 3.5lbs which some departments deny operators access to.

Returning to my training and how this applies to long guns is the notion of the shooter consciously separating the motor actions of the trigger hand. The trigger finger is isolated from the three fingers below. The three fingers utilize gross motor skills pulling the rifle horizontally back into the shoulder or vest. The focus then should be on the trigger finger which requires fine motor skills to function in stressful situations. Familiarity with stressful situations does reduce exaggeration physiological symptoms as operators become inured and familiar with how their body works.

Nice video Montana. Your friend certainly has smooth actions. 'Slow is smooth, smooth is fast'. I used to watch these guys choreographing their moves before a match, simulating when they would change mags, which targets to engage and when; on the approach, when stationary or when reversing. Not often does Prac Pistol entertain 'Hidden shoots' where no knowledge of the target and no rehearsal is permitted. That tends to sort out some who rely on reducing the activity to a choreograph of unrealistic steps.
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#22
Klem Wrote:Nice video Montana. Your friend certainly has smooth actions. 'Slow is smooth, smooth is fast'. I used to watch these guys choreographing their moves before a match, simulating when they would change mags, which targets to engage and when; on the approach, when stationary or when reversing. Not often does Prac Pistol entertain 'Hidden shoots' where no knowledge of the target and no rehearsal is permitted. That tends to sort out some who rely on reducing the activity to a choreograph of unrealistic steps.

You are correct KLem about Practical shooting being related to choreographic steps. It is a sport, not training for combat or self defense, but that said, I have never seen the top tier shooters not dominate other shooting activities when put to the test. My friend shoots between 60 to 80 thousand rounds a year by his best guess. He even mortgaged his home once to finance his ammunition expenditures before he got sponsors and started his own training business on top of his structural engineering job. People who shoot at these levels have very little problem when applying them to real world situations. Fundamental shooting is fundamental shooting which applies to all shooting activities.
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#23
Wow, 60-80K rounds is a lot of money even with handloaded lead/teflon rounds. I know of two guys personally who made a decision to leave the sport given their addiction to it was affecting other parts of their lives.

Our military regularly hosts top-tier prac shooters as Subject Matter Experts (SME's) in the hope some of their skills are transferrable. Many of our service guys also compete in prac pistol in their own time. It is definitely encourages innovation and the opportunity for cross-pollination is not lost in the Antipodes.
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#24
Klem Wrote:Wow, 60-80K rounds is a lot of money even with handloaded lead/teflon rounds. I know of two guys personally who made a decision to leave the sport given their addiction to it was affecting other parts of their lives.

.

Addiction or determination is dependent on ones point of view, values and culture. This was the argument back in the 60"s between the hippies and normal people Smile
All Joking put aside, this is a topic with out end as we have discovered with the Arnie debate and the need for referees, oops, "I mean moderators".
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#25
Montana:

If you have a problem with me as a Moderator, write John or Bill and demand I be relieved and you be my replacement.

If not, either stay on topic or do not post.

LR55
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#26
LR1955 Wrote:Montana:

If you have a problem with me as a Moderator, write John or Bill and demand I be relieved and you be my replacement.

If not, either stay on topic or do not post.

LR55

It was meant as a compliment Gene, not an insult. Moderating is a difficult job like refereeing. Referees have to be in the middle of fights ,"debates" with everyone trying to find fault with the referee especially when emotions fly. You do a great job moderating and the quality of this forum is the outcome. You have set me on the right course many times with complete fairness and professionalism. There was no insult or derogatory intent what so ever on my part. I apologize for the confusion. If I had a beef with you it would be sent on a PM where we could hash it out. I hope you will accept my apology as sending an insult your way was the last thing I intended to do.
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#27
montana Wrote:It was meant as a compliment Gene, not an insult. Moderating is a difficult job like refereeing. Referees have to be in the middle of fights ,"debates" with everyone trying to find fault with the referee especially when emotions fly. You do a great job moderating and the quality of this forum is the outcome. You have set me on the right course many times with complete fairness and professionalism. There was no insult or derogatory intent what so ever on my part. I apologize for the confusion. If I had a beef with you it would be sent on a PM where we could hash it out. I hope you will accept my apology as sending an insult your way was the last thing I intended to do.

Montana:

Absolutely accepted. For the others here, Montana and I have worked out our differences back channel a couple of times and I both enjoy our conversations and have garnered a huge amount of respect for him and his accomplishments. He is a quality person.

So, I was 'gobsmacked' as Kelm would probably say, when I read his post this morning. Just didn't get to respond until now.

However, it didn't keep me from having a good work out then a fantastic training session at the range. While at the range I realized that what he said was actually pretty funny but didn't get a chance to say so until now. Not sure what would have happened if my training didn't go as well.... No, I enjoy my competitions and sports but unlike the fellows Montana and Klem wrote about, success or failure in my sports does not dictate my quality of life. Been there and done that one. Take heed those of you who are highly competitive. Particularly in marksmanship. It can be of great benefit in your lives or it can destroy your lives.

So, lets get back on a marksmanship topic again please.

LR55
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#28
LR1955 Wrote:Montana:

Absolutely accepted. For the others here, Montana and I have worked out our differences back channel a couple of times and I both enjoy our conversations and have garnered a huge amount of respect for him and his accomplishments. He is a quality person.

So, I was 'gobsmacked' as Kelm would probably say, when I read his post this morning. Just didn't get to respond until now.

However, it didn't keep me from having a good work out then a fantastic training session at the range. While at the range I realized that what he said was actually pretty funny but didn't get a chance to say so until now. Not sure what would have happened if my training didn't go as well.... No, I enjoy my competitions and sports but unlike the fellows Montana and Klem wrote about, success or failure in my sports does not dictate my quality of life. Been there and done that one. Take heed those of you who are highly competitive. Particularly in marksmanship. It can be of great benefit in your lives or it can destroy your lives.

So, lets get back on a marksmanship topic again please.

LR55

I'm glad I helped with your work out. I was taken back by how you responded to my post but after my wife viewed it she totally agreed on how you would take it as an insult. So once more I have to pull my foot out of my mouth and carry on. I'm glad we got that cleared up.
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#29
Right, that's it you two...enough with the 'Bromance'. I'm feeling left out. Let's get back to some serious arguing! (...only joking. LOL).

I didn't read anything disparaging in Montana's post either. I find emails and forums exaggerate formality in communication. Without the usual non-verbal cues to compliment what you say we get a higher risk of misunderstanding.

Difficult not to derive a sense of self from the things we have and do. I believe the term is cathexis; where we confer some things with emotional importance. I derive a sense of self from my guns and shooting experiences. I imagine if they were stolen or damaged I would feel a little less complete. Even if the insurance paid out in full for the time they were missing I would feel less of a person. By the same token I derive a sense of purpose from the activity of shooting, and a sense of community from interacting with fellow shooters (both at the range and on forums). The point being, I can understand how shooting can consume people to the point it becomes dysfunctional. I guess too much of anything is probably bad for us. Which reminds me, I need another cup of coffee...
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