Grendel mags?

[bwaites]

I am not a Pmag (or any other polymer mag) fan. David Fortier published a great test article on AR mags in Nov 2009 in Shotgun news.

There is writeup here: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009...tgun-news/

I'll see if David will allow us to print the whole article, but basically, if I remember correctly, all the polymer mags failed an 8.5 foot drop test while loaded. The aluminum mags passed. Stainless steel would pass, I suspect. I like my Grendel mags as they are. Its really hard to beat the folded steel strength issues when you use the same form factor with polymer.

[stanc]

I am not a Pmag (or any other polymer mag) fan. David Fortier published a great test article on AR mags in Nov 2009 in Shotgun news.

I'll see if David will allow us to print the whole article, but basically, if I remember correctly, all the polymer mags failed an 8.5 foot drop test while loaded.

On arfcom he said "the Tango Down, PMAG and TAPCO all split down the spine" but "the Lancer and MSAR suffered little or no damage."

The aluminum mags passed. Stainless steel would pass, I suspect.

Um, apparently not: "The CProducts Stainless steel mag also died on impact with flattened feedlips."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826...1#i4345555

I don't see much applicability to the real world in torture "tests" like these. I mean, how often are mags going to be run over by a truck, or dropped from a height of more than 8 feet? Let's see some testing based on the way mags are used in reality.

[RangerRick]

On arfcom he said "the Tango Down, PMAG and TAPCO all split down the spine" but "the Lancer and MSAR suffered little or no damage."

Um, apparently not: "The CProducts Stainless steel mag also died on impact with flattened feedlips."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826...1#i4345555

I don't see much applicability to the real world in torture "tests" like these. I mean, how often are mags going to be run over by a truck, or dropped from a height of more than 8 feet? Let's see some testing based on the way mags are used in reality.

When you parachute in, you lower your ruck sack on a 20 foot line. That way it hits before you and your descent rate slows a little before you land.

Stuff in the ruck takes a pretty good shot. It would suck if your mags split.

I've had ammo, among other things, thrown out of a hovering helicopter to me. No place to land so it gets tossed out hovering over the trees.

It was all cased ammo though, and it is packed really well and survived OK.

I've also had ammo dropped to me with a poncho parachute out of a helicopter flying by. You literally tie a couple of ammo boxes to the 4 corners of a poncho with parachute cord. You stuff the poncho into a sand bag and make a static line out of 15 feet of parachute cord. You tie one end of the static line to a floor ring and the other to the closed end of the sand bag. Then throw the ammo and sand bag full of poncho out the door.

The weight of the ammo pulls the poncho out of the sand bag. It acts like a parachute, sort of. The ammo hits hard, but usually survives the drop. Here again, it was cased ammo, so it was packed very well.

I've seen guys fall over 8 feet, though, and it would suck to have the mags burst, even if it was your buddies that needed the ammo and not the guy who fell.

One of the guys in the Back Hawk Down incident fell 40 feet on the fast rope in and had to be medevac'ed, so it does happen.

Back in the days of the old C rations, our company clerk came up to me and handed me a dripping wet cardboard box and said "here's your dinner."

The chow had been dropped by parachute from a C-130 on a cargo pallet. The cans of food on the bottom of the stack burst on impact.

I had been out on a patrol and got in late, so I ate off the bottom of the stack. In my case it was a can of apricots, so they were still edible.

At least it wasn't the spaghetti! It was barely edible normally, much less oozing out of a split can.

RR

[bwaites]

On arfcom he said "the Tango Down, PMAG and TAPCO all split down the spine" but "the Lancer and MSAR suffered little or no damage."

Um, apparently not: "The CProducts Stainless steel mag also died on impact with flattened feedlips."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826...1#i4345555

I don't see much applicability to the real world in torture "tests" like these. I mean, how often are mags going to be run over by a truck, or dropped from a height of more than 8 feet? Let's see some testing based on the way mags are used in reality.

Well, it was 2 years ago!

Dropped? I've dropped my mags from height several times, jumping out of trucks, etc. I usually have jumped over a pickup side when its happened, and I'm 6'3" so they probably fell 7 or 8 feet. I've seen one run over, but it was a lost mag, and then found when the truck moved. It was soft ground and undamaged, and it was an aluminum mag.

The nice thing about stainless is you can bend the lips back, if the spine splits, you are done.

If I remember right, the MSAR wouldn't drop from his AR's, and he liked the Lancers.

All my stainless mags drop free, as do my Pmags, as do my aluminum mags. (Yes, I have about a dozen Pmags. They work, but for the price difference I would probably buy regular 5.56 mags now.)

I just wish we had more than one option, because having only one supplier of anything worries me!

[stanc]

When you parachute in, you lower your ruck sack on a 20 foot line. That way it hits before you and your descent rate slows a little before you land.

Stuff in the ruck takes a pretty good shot. It would suck if your mags split.

I've seen guys fall over 8 feet, though, and it would suck to have the mags burst, even if it was your buddies that needed the ammo and not the guy who fell.

One of the guys in the Back Hawk Down incident fell 40 feet on the fast rope in and had to be medevac'ed, so it does happen.

But in each example above, the mags would've been in pouches, protected and cushioned to one degree or another. They weren't naked magazines being dropped.

(IIRC, my favorite C-ration was scrambled eggs. Peaches were pretty good, too. )

[stanc]

Well, it was 2 years ago!

Don't they say the memory is one of the first things to go? I can't remember. :o

Dropped? I've dropped my mags from height several times, jumping out of trucks, etc.

Didn't learn after the first time? Gee, I thought I was slow.

Kidding aside, why would you keep using mag pouches that allow your mags to fall out so easily?

I've seen one run over, but it was a lost mag, and then found when the truck moved.

Yeah, but it's such a rare event it doesn't seem worth testing. It seems to me there are tests far more relevant to the way mags are actually carried and used. Of course, they wouldn't be as dramatic as driving over a mag with a big, camo-painted truck.

I just wish we had more than one option, because having only one supplier of anything worries me!

The former owners of C-Products should be making new mags very soon. That'd make two manufacturers, which would help.

[Trapper]

C rations? You guys forget the infamous Ham and Lima Beans. You could choke down the spaghetti if you had some hot sauce, and some C-4 to heat it up. Nothing made the ham and lima beans palatable.

[smokey27]

If you dont have grendel mags what are the best 556 mags to use, even with just 3-4 rounds in them I heard they will work? I have aluminum 20 and 30 rounders, steel 20 and 30s, and even some thermold 20 and 30s. What is weird is I found the thermolds could hold the most grendel rounds, some of my very old mil spec 20 round aluminum mags would actually start to split down the spine once you put 4 or 5 grendel rounds in them.

I ask cause I got the gun built and have ammo, but the mags are on order, and I would like to sight it in and function test (albiet with 556 mags ), without having to shoot it like a single shot.

[pinzgauer]

30 round pmag worked flawlessly with 5 rounds in two different grendels I built.

Also probably the easiest to locate locally

[stanc]

If you dont have grendel mags what are the best 556 mags to use, even with just 3-4 rounds in them I heard they will work? I have aluminum 20 and 30 rounders, steel 20 and 30s, and even some thermold 20 and 30s.

I ask cause I got the gun built and have ammo, but the mags are on order, and I would like to sight it in and function test (albiet with 556 mags ), without having to shoot it like a single shot.

Have you tried loading 6.5 rounds in your 5.56 mags and cycled them by hand in the rifle to see if they'll feed?

[LRRPF52]

If you dont have grendel mags what are the best 556 mags to use, even with just 3-4 rounds in them I heard they will work? I have aluminum 20 and 30 rounders, steel 20 and 30s, and even some thermold 20 and 30s. What is weird is I found the thermolds could hold the most grendel rounds, some of my very old mil spec 20 round aluminum mags would actually start to split down the spine once you put 4 or 5 grendel rounds in them.

I ask cause I got the gun built and have ammo, but the mags are on order, and I would like to sight it in and function test (albiet with 556 mags ), without having to shoot it like a single shot.

I would suggest single-loading until your Grendel mags arrive. There's no reason to introduce known products that don't really work, unless you just want to mag-feed 3 rounds at a time, which might be ok for shooting 3rd groups.

[RangerRick]

But in each example above, the mags would've been in pouches, protected and cushioned to one degree or another. They weren't naked magazines being dropped.

(IIRC, my favorite C-ration was scrambled eggs. Peaches were pretty good, too. )

Except the lowering line scenario. I'm not jumping in with a lot of bandoleers, stripper clips, and adapters. All my personal load was in mags, and you put it on the outside of the ruck or near the top, because it was what you needed to get at first.

The ruck is jumped upside down, and sort of hangs that way on the line.

I lost a can of apricots out of my ruck in Ranger School and nearly cried. I was pissed off for a week. We were so hungry we even ate that glue with oil on top they called peanut butter.

The worst thing about the old C Rats was monotony. Only six different meals. The First Sergeant opened the case upside down so you couldn't see what you were pulling out when you lined up went by and grabbed one. Guys memorized where they were in the upside down case so they wouldn't get the dreaded ham and limas. So Top had to mix them up and you played c-rat bingo. Then the horse trading began!

The chocolate choke roll (aka chocolate nut roll) was my favorite. It was so dry it was impossible to eat without a 5 gallon gerry can of water. If you punched a small hole in the can and poured some water in and steamed it, though, it was good.

Some guys elevated c-rat cooking to an art form.

RR

[stanc]

Except the lowering line scenario. I'm not jumping in with a lot of bandoleers, stripper clips, and adapters. All my personal load was in mags, and you put it on the outside of the ruck or near the top...

You put bare magazines on the outside of the ruck? How did you attach them?

[LRRPF52]

Every jump I did, the LCE was worn underneath your parachute harness, with the adjustment lengthened out so it dangled around your waist. The 30rd M16 mag pouches did a pretty good job of insulating mags from lots of impact, but in an airfield seizure, hitting the runway is pretty hard on everything, especially the jumper...I always slipped away from airstrips.

I don't know what they're doing now with the MOLLE gear. I made my own MOLLE chest harness that opened in the middle, and could still be worn under the parachute harness. I also made my own leg rigs that could carry (8) 30rd mags comfortably, and everyone said, "Yeah, but you can't jump those...", so I did...no issues. "You can't road march with those, though.", so I did. I used an LC-1 style harness, but an "H" rather than "Y" type, locally-made with the same nylon materials, so I wouldn't stick out too much like a sore thumb to some dirtbag SGM who knew zero about Infantry anything, and had merely stayed in while being promoted each time he screwed up.

He still caught me, and said he would have a talk with my 1SG. I told him there is no way to carry the load we will be issued for actual combat with the existing kit, especially when frags and smokes start getting handed out. He took an M18 Smoke grenade, bent the spoon around the carrier for an M67 frag on one of his M16 30rd mag pouches, and said, "There!", as it dangled around beneath his empty LCE. "You gonna jump with that like that SGM?"

I sewed universal grenade carriers to the sides of my ammo pouches with retaining bands for the fuse bodies, like from the old M-1956 system, before the Army "fixed" it. I could safely jump with, carry, and fight with a double basic load+ (13 mags), 4 M18 smoke grenades, 2 M67 frags, my ICOM radio, my PVS-14's, a 90oz camelbak, 2 one-quart canteens, with both my SAW pouches and buttpack empty, ready for all the other crap that comes down the line.

I'm wearing that set-up in this pic:

[RangerRick]

You put bare magazines on the outside of the ruck? How did you attach them?

On the old Alice rucks you put some in the outside pockets. On the inside I used to put some in the radio pouch. That kept them near the top and easy to find in the dark.

Of course your immediate load is in the two triple 30 round pouches, and you usually stuck one in the rifle pouch that you slid down the lowering line so that it rested on top of your ruck before impact.

In the movies you just see guys hook up and jump. Rigging all that stuff so you don't lose anything is a real pain.

It wasn't unusual after a jump to see M-16's that could almost shoot around corners or at least around trees. Sometimes they still worked.


RR

[bwaites]

Don't they say the memory is one of the first things to go? I can't remember. :o

Didn't learn after the first time? Gee, I thought I was slow.

Kidding aside, why would you keep using mag pouches that allow your mags to fall out so easily?

Yeah, but it's such a rare event it doesn't seem worth testing. It seems to me there are tests far more relevant to the way mags are actually carried and used. Of course, they wouldn't be as dramatic as driving over a mag with a big, camo-painted truck.

The former owners of C-Products should be making new mags very soon. That'd make two manufacturers, which would help.

Memory? Was I supposed to remember something?

Actually, I do learn kind of slow, but it was two different rigs that let them go. One was a "crap, I forgot the right rig" setup, and the other was a vest that had a securing band of velcro, that evidently wasn't quite up to the task of hanging onto a full 30 round mag when the inertial forces actually kicked in.

I'll agree on the "runover" test. It was always just one of those "show it for the sales guys" kinds of tests in my mind.

Hopefully the former C-Products owners will keep a high standard of QC as the basic premise. New line setups always are an issue, especially with folded steel, and even more when you fold AND curve it!

[bwaites]

Every jump I did, the LCE was worn underneath your parachute harness, with the adjustment lengthened out so it dangled around your waist. The 30rd M16 mag pouches did a pretty good job of insulating mags from lots of impact, but in an airfield seizure, hitting the runway is pretty hard on everything, especially the jumper...I always slipped away from airstrips.

I don't know what they're doing now with the MOLLE gear. I made my own MOLLE chest harness that opened in the middle, and could still be worn under the parachute harness. I also made my own leg rigs that could carry (8) 30rd mags comfortably, and everyone said, "Yeah, but you can't jump those...", so I did...no issues. "You can't road march with those, though.", so I did. I used an LC-1 style harness, but an "H" rather than "Y" type, locally-made with the same nylon materials, so I wouldn't stick out too much like a sore thumb to some dirtbag SGM who knew zero about Infantry anything, and had merely stayed in while being promoted each time he screwed up.

He still caught me, and said he would have a talk with my 1SG. I told him there is no way to carry the load we will be issued for actual combat with the existing kit, especially when frags and smokes start getting handed out. He took an M18 Smoke grenade, bent the spoon around the carrier for an M67 frag on one of his M16 30rd mag pouches, and said, "There!", as it dangled around beneath his empty LCE. "You gonna jump with that like that SGM?"

I sewed universal grenade carriers to the sides of my ammo pouches with retaining bands for the fuse bodies, like from the old M-1956 system, before the Army "fixed" it. I could safely jump with, carry, and fight with a double basic load+ (13 mags), 4 M18 smoke grenades, 2 M67 frags, my ICOM radio, my PVS-14's, a 90oz camelbak, 2 one-quart canteens, with both my SAW pouches and buttpack empty, ready for all the other crap that comes down the line.

I'm wearing that set-up in this pic:

Wow, you looked GOOD!! That's one squared away, square jawed Norseman right there! SERIOUS door kicker!

[stanc]

On the old Alice rucks you put some in the outside pockets. On the inside I used to put some in the radio pouch.

Okay, that's what I figured. So they did have some degree of protection, and weren't just bare magazines being dropped onto concrete like in the video.

ETA: When stowed in your ruck, did any mags ever sustain damage on impact?

I don't know if there might also be a difference in impact velocity. In the last 100 feet or so of my first (and only) jump, it seemed as if I was approaching the ground at about 200 miles per hour! :eek:

[stanc]

...it was two different rigs that let them go. One was a "crap, I forgot the right rig" setup, and the other was a vest that had a securing band of velcro, that evidently wasn't quite up to the task of hanging onto a full 30 round mag when the inertial forces actually kicked in.

Okay. Maybe the drop test actually is of some value.

[pinzgauer]

I'm not a GI, never served. But my impression is that "Hey Joe, toss me a mag" is not that uncommon. Not run over it with a truck, or even 10 foot drop onto concrete.

But I don't want one that spews cartridges if jarred. Which early poly mags (ram-line) did. And as do PMAGs loaded with over 15 rounds of Grendel. Yes, not a fair comparison on the pmag, it was not designed for grendel.) I'm talking 4" drop onto a carpeted shooting bench, they would spew!

I have a bunch of pmags for 5.56. They work fine, just as reliably as the GI & Cprod alloy ones do. And just like my Cprod grendel ones do. I don't see a huge advantage, and I do see some disadvantages. (pouch fit, feed lip flex, etc)