Grendel LMG

[stanc]

Holy crap! Did you notice how cheap the DSA RPD's are?

Sure did. Almost two months ago.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...1#post6872

Although at the time, I didn't foresee it having any real worth beyond novelty.

[LRRPF52]

You did such a great job of sourcing the picture, that I never clicked on the link to it to see the prices! I've heard of a few guys using cut-down RPD's in SOG in Southeast Asia, as well as the Rhodesian SAS doing the same thing in their conflicts, and it was well-liked for the dismounted commando units due to its lightweight, firepower, and maneuverability. Those are all essential elements to a modern LMG. If it had a quick-change barrel, it would be more viable for the modern era, along with some improvements in the metallurgy, a 1913 rail on the feed tray cover, and the direction DSA is going with it.

I'm having visions of an RPD spitting out Grendel tracers at night on a transition range...

[RangerRick]

Sure did. Almost two months ago.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...1#post6872

Although at the time, I didn't foresee it having any real worth beyond novelty.

Here is a guy in Florida that builds them even cheaper. http://www.projectguns.com/rpdbuilds.html

Do we want to go full auto are start with semi? The semis have to be modified to shoot from a closed bolt, so it wouldn't be possible to just switch to a full auto lower.

I don't know if semi would satisfy people as a proof of viability.

We can get demiled barrels for $10 if we need a barrel as a pattern for the manufacture of a 6.5.


RR

[bwaites]

As a somewhat disinterested party, I don't think shooting links in semi-auto is going to be impressive to anyone. To be viable, its got to be an auto gun, thats the whole purpose behind the whole link issue.

[stanc]

Paul, some weeks ago you mentioned a European silhouette target, and it had a specific name. I've searched for it without success. Can you please post the name again?

[LRRPF52]

Janter or Jaster. They are different than our E-types in that they are 45cm wide, versus 49.5cm wide. When range-estimating, it makes things very clean with Mils, since a 1 Mil wide Janter is at 450m (450mm/1 Mil=450m), a .5 Mil wide Janter is 950m (450mm/.5=900m), etc. I'm not sure if you'll get much with a google search. The ones in Finland are made from corrugated aluminum plates, attached to radio-controlled pop-up/fall mechanisms often. The E-types we have in the US Army are OD green plastic, with ribs in them for rigidity. The Finns paint the Jasters with camo patterns, and some of the competitions I've been do had sand thrown on them while the paint was still wet...extremely difficult to detect at 400-900m, especially in the noon-sun range of daylight...

[stanc]

Janter or Jaster. I'm not sure if you'll get much with a google search. The ones in Finland are made from corrugated aluminum plates, attached to radio-controlled pop-up/fall mechanisms often.

Didn't find anything at all via google images.

Do they look like the pop-up targets @ 4:30-4:33 in

[video=youtube;JA_brhCBRvQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA_brhCBRvQ[/video]

[LRRPF52]

Nope, those are Russians. The Janter and Jaster targets are a Western European military piece of equipment. I'll look for some photos if I have any and see what I can come up with. They are the pop-up target system used at both FinnSniper and Häyhä every year. I just got an update with pics of this year's Häyhä competition, but there aren't any good pics of the Janter targets, since they put camouflaged uniforms over them, and placed them from 25m-1190m (1300yds).

[stanc]

Nope, those are Russians. The Janter and Jaster targets are a Western European military piece of equipment.

The reason I asked if the Russian pop-ups might be the same as the Janter is because they look just like the "International silhouette target" shown in a 1970 American Rifleman article. Plus, that target also has a width of 45cm.

[LRRPF52]

Here's a good review on the 2007 FinnSniper competition:

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/view...hp?t=10563

It has several good images of Janter targets.

[longdayjake]

I know that full auto would be most desireable but I am willing to buy a semi-auto cheapy. That said, I have no clue where to get a 6.5 barrel for it.

[stanc]

I know that full auto would be most desireable but I am willing to buy a semi-auto cheapy. That said, I have no clue where to get a 6.5 barrel for it.

It'd have to be custom made. IIRC, RangerRick had a couple of ideas on getting it done.

Now that the steel-cased Wolf FMJ ammo seems near to reality, a 6.5 RPD becomes even more interesting.

[longdayjake]

Now that the steel-cased Wolf FMJ ammo seems near to reality, a 6.5 RPD becomes even more interesting.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

[LRRPF52]

You're going to love this guys...

http://www.army.mil/article/67318/_Ironm...ttlefield/

I'm not sure who did it first though, as I have a friend who took a pic of a guy wearing old-school Desert BDU's (chocolate chips from 1980's era/Desert Storm) in Afghanistan with one of these packs, and a hand-held 5.56x45 Minigun. There's also Tyr Tactical...

http://www.tyrtactical.com/products/deta...ault-pack/

Imagine that with Grendel flowing from it, pushing 144 FMJ's out of a high-pressure-capable LMG that weighs half of the SAW and Mk.48, with a constant recoil mechanism. Release the eeeeeeeeevil....

[stanc]

You're going to love this guys...

http://www.army.mil/article/67318/_Ironm...ttlefield/

I'm not sure who did it first though...

The first such pack I remember seeing was that worn by Jesse Ventura in the 1987 movie, Predator.

There was also a photo of a guy with a backpack like that, and an M60 in his hands, on the cover of Machine Gun News in the late '80s or early '90s.

IIRC, my buddy proposed doing it during one of our discussions in the late '70s. Although that idea never went beyond the talking stage, he actually did something somewhat similar when he was an M60 gunner in Vietnam. It was common to have a "starter belt" of about 25-30 rounds loaded in the gun when going on patrol, then when that was fired up during contact, a full 100-rd belt would be loaded. He wasn't content with that SOP, so he scrounged an issue buttpack, fixed a strap to it, and slung it over his right shoulder so that the pack rested on his left hip. Filled with 300 rounds of continuous-linked ammo, it not only balanced the weight of the machine gun, but also gave him a capability for sustained fire unmatched by any other M60 gunner in that war.

Imagine that with Grendel flowing from it, pushing 144 FMJ's out of a high-pressure-capable LMG that weighs half of the SAW and Mk.48, with a constant recoil mechanism. Release the eeeeeeeeevil....

Yeah. Too bad a 6.5 Grendel LMG is only imaginary.

[LRRPF52]

That starter-belt SOP continues on well into the current day. We ordered ammo bags specifically made for linked 7.62 from Tactical Tailor, since I had been aware of them back at Lewis. I suggested to our battalion in 82nd to get them before we deployed to OIF1, and we did, but it still didn't provide an on-the-gun ammo feed like the PKM has with the cans.

All good ideas are ideas first...

[stanc]

All good ideas are ideas first...

Yup. And I think we'd all rate a 6.5 Grendel LMG as a good idea.

The difficulty is turning it from good idea into shootable reality...

[longdayjake]

Is it safe to say that nobody is going to try this with a full auto?

[stanc]

Jake, I'll be quite surprised if anybody tries to Grendelize an RPD, whether it's full-auto or semi-auto.

It's a matter of money, desire, and ability. While a few members have one or two of those, it seems that nobody has all three.

[Tony Williams]

Now here's an interesting idea: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/...rsion-kit/

The US Machine Gun Armory have developed a set of kits to convert the MK46 / M249 SAW into a range of 7.62mm calibers including the 7.62x39mm, 7.62x40mm Wilson Tactical, .300 AAC BLK and 7.62x51mm. All that is required is swapping out the top-cover, barrel and a few other parts.

What I'd like to see is them producing a 6.5 mm Grendel version...