Howa mini-action in grendel to be released in mid-2016

[KentuckyBuddha]

If only it were that easy!

Amortized over all the copies of 7.62x39, 5.56, .204....etc you would have in increased sales from here on out in that line, it still might be worth the bother.

[Doon]

I read on another thread here on the forum that the twist rate on the prototypes is 1:9. I strongly recommend 1:8 for the 6.5 Grendel.

If you go to Berger Bullet's Twist Rate Calculator and enter in data for a sort of worst-case scenario — 6.5mm 130 Berger AR Hybrid at 2450 fps at temperature 0 and altitude 0 with a 1:8 twist — you get a "comfortable" stability factor of 1.61. Good article on this by Litz here.

Changing only the twist rate to 1:9, you get "marginal" stability of 1.27.

To get back to comfortable stability with a 1:9 in those conditions — let's say you're on the Alaskan coast in winter — you'd need a muzzle velocity of 4,000 fps!

Howa: Please, change the twist on your 6.5 Grendel mini-actions from 1:9 to 1:8 before these go into production!

P.S. If you're trying to be efficient by using the same barrels as your 6.5x55s, they, too, will benefit going to 1:8.

P.P.S. Bryan Litz tested velocity loss from twist rate increase and found it averaged only 1.33 fps per inch of twist rate. So if your 1:9 shoots 2601.33, then your 1:8 will shoot 2600 fps.

My Savage Grendel has a 1-8 twist Howa 6.5 x55 barrel and it shoots .5 MOA with 123 SST with ease. This was during barrel brake in.
it was taken from a Howa 6.5x55 brand new rifle and shortened to 20.5 " and adapted to fit a Savage model 11 action.
The chamber is 6.5 LCB-AR and can load 123gn SST to 2.3" with ease, still playing with it but the 1-8 Howa barrel is more than I could of wished for.
I agree the 1-9 twist would be a compromise.

[Matt @ LSI]

I read on another thread here on the forum that the twist rate on the prototypes is 1:9. I strongly recommend 1:8 for the 6.5 Grendel.

If you go to Berger Bullet's Twist Rate Calculator and enter in data for a sort of worst-case scenario — 6.5mm 130 Berger AR Hybrid at 2450 fps at temperature 0 and altitude 0 with a 1:8 twist — you get a "comfortable" stability factor of 1.61. Good article on this by Litz here.

Changing only the twist rate to 1:9, you get "marginal" stability of 1.27.

To get back to comfortable stability with a 1:9 in those conditions — let's say you're on the Alaskan coast in winter — you'd need a muzzle velocity of 4,000 fps!

Howa: Please, change the twist on your 6.5 Grendel mini-actions from 1:9 to 1:8 before these go into production!

P.S. If you're trying to be efficient by using the same barrels as your 6.5x55s, they, too, will benefit going to 1:8.

P.P.S. Bryan Litz tested velocity loss from twist rate increase and found it averaged only 1.33 fps per inch of twist rate. So if your 1:9 shoots 2601.33, then your 1:8 will shoot 2600 fps.

gooooood mornin!

its a beautiful blue bird, balmy 25 degree morning here in Reno. Ill be out shooting these at distance today, hopefully to 600-800 yards depending on terrain conditions.

i do have good news on the RATE OF TWIST front, these are IN-FACT going to be 1-8 twist. i received an answer from the factory but i am still awaiting throat and chamber specs. They are on vacation until the 4th at the Japan Offices.

the 1-8 does make more sense, even our 6.5 creedmoors are 1-8 twist and those absolutely love 140gr pills.

ill be uploading some video hopefully by today!

[BluntForceTrauma]

Very good news! Take. My. Money. NOW!

Oh, and I know we've been tormenting you with all our pet suggestions and pulling you in a million different directions, but think about offering the stock colored in Flat Dark Earth or Coyote Brown?

A lot of shooting in the U.S. happens during hunting season when both the leaves and grass are brown, and something like Dark Earth or Coyote would serve as a good basis for desert and autumn camo.

Ruger has done it with their American Ranch Rifle! Just sayin'! Heh. Heh. Heh. . . .

[Matt @ LSI]

i would personally love to see a sand stock. The YOTE pattern is the only flavor in the predator hunting genre right now, Which will be available to some distributors and special orders. Current Stock colors are; Black, Green, Kryptek Highlander and Multicam. As soon as we get git in a steady supply of all proposed calibers we will more than likely be looking into different stocks. A couple of members have proposed modifying current stocks but im sorry its just not that easy. We have to pay a large chunk of money to have a new mold developed to any manufacturer and then test and modify. We do it right from the start, a ground up made to fit stock. Stocks arent something you can just modify to work and expect 100% perfect results. Bare with us, as these gain popularity there will be more stocks/mounts/bottom metals available. These are still in their infancy but the future looks VERY bright.

[BluntForceTrauma]

You guys are moving FAST! I see the catalog is already laid out. It's all good, no worries. For my personal taste, the Kryptek Highlander is beautiful, as well.

As you say, it's better to get these out the door and selling, and then other variations can be offered down the road. . . .

Howa is certainly proving they are TRYING to offer a variety of cool options, and it's that attitude that we LIKE!

UPDATE: Online article by Wayne Van Zwoll reviews .223 version.

[bwaites]

Since we are playing "please may I have", can we get a heavy barreled 24" version?

[Matt @ LSI]

Since we are playing "please may I have", can we get a heavy barreled 24" version?

The longest Howa plans on going is 20" for the HB version

[bwaites]

The longest Howa plans on going is 20" for the HB version

Will Howa sell actions?

[Matt @ LSI]

Will Howa sell actions?

Howa does not sell to the public. We are selling the mini action barreled actions if you wish to go that route.

[bwaites]

Howa does not sell to the public. We are selling the mini action barreled actions if you wish to go that route.

May be my best option. I like the 20-22 barrels as hunters, but a 20 inch heavy barrel doesn't take maximal advantage of the bolt action for long range. I regularly shoot my 28" AR out to 800-1000 yards.

[MrDraco]

i would personally love to see a sand stock. The YOTE pattern is the only flavor in the predator hunting genre right now, Which will be available to some distributors and special orders. Current Stock colors are; Black, Green, Kryptek Highlander and Multicam. As soon as we get git in a steady supply of all proposed calibers we will more than likely be looking into different stocks. A couple of members have proposed modifying current stocks but im sorry its just not that easy. We have to pay a large chunk of money to have a new mold developed to any manufacturer and then test and modify. We do it right from the start, a ground up made to fit stock. Stocks arent something you can just modify to work and expect 100% perfect results. Bare with us, as these gain popularity there will be more stocks/mounts/bottom metals available. These are still in their infancy but the future looks VERY bright.

This pic of the catalog says it comes with a 10 round mag but on the last page, the specs you posted says 5 round. Which is correct?

[Matt @ LSI]

This pic of the catalog says it comes with a 10 round mag but on the last page, the specs you posted says 5 round. Which is correct?

the grendels come with a 5rd magazine. the other calibers come with 10 rounders.

[Drift]

I believe the Grendel has a Max Operating Pressure set at 50,000 (psi I think). Does anyone know who much pressure the new Mini Howa action will take?

[Matt @ LSI]

I believe the Grendel has a Max Operating Pressure set at 50,000 (psi I think). Does anyone know who much pressure the new Mini Howa action will take?

we are not going to publish a breaking point. the only thing we can tell you from a liability standpoint is to shoot factory loaded ammunition to retain the factory warranty. by working up your own loads you take this matter in your own hands. we dont recommend going outside of saami spec for any cartridge.

[BluntForceTrauma]

We don't recommend going outside of SAAMI spec for any cartridge.

I hope that means you're planning to use the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI chamber. Other custom chambers might be tuned to this or that bullet for a specific performance node, but the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI chamber was designed to shoot well the very wide variety of 6.5mm bullets at moderate 6.5 Grendel velocities.

And, Drift, I'd guess that the Howa MA shares the same bolt lugs as its bigger brethren. Only the bolt body length is shortened. Thus, it should have at least the same strength as their short actions in the .308-case family. <WINK!> (Eh, Matt, you didn't see that. . . .)

P.S. The maximum average operating pressure for the 6.5 Grendel of about 50,000 psi was specifically set for conservative margins of safety for the bolt-life requirements of a fleet of rack-grade AR15s operating from the extremes of the Siberian arctic to the Middle East. If you have a stronger bolt, the cases can certainly handle more pressure.

[Matt @ LSI]

I hope that means you're planning to use the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI chamber. Other custom chambers might be tuned to this or that bullet for a specific performance node, but the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI chamber was designed to shoot well the very wide variety of 6.5mm bullets at moderate 6.5 Grendel velocities

And, Drift, I'd guess that the Howa MA shares the same bolt lugs as its bigger brethren. Only the bolt body length is shortened. Thus, it should have at least the same strength as their short actions in the .308-case family. <WINK!> (Eh, Matt, you didn't see that. . . .)

P.S. The maximum average operating pressure for the 6.5 Grendel of about 50,000 psi was specifically set for conservative margins of safety for the bolt-life requirements of a fleet of rack-grade AR15s operating from the extremes of the Siberian arctic to the Middle East. If you have a stronger bolt, the cases can certainly handle more pressure.

From my experience with Howa, they do EVERYTHING SAAMI spec so I don't see why this would be any different. And yes we of course understand. People will push the limit and develope loads but this doesn't mean we're going to replace a broken/blown up rifle due to someone's hand loads. Stay safe. My little brother lost half of his left thumb due to an over pressured round, so this topic hits close to home with me.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Wow. Hey, sorry for your brother's misfortune. Safety warnings and personal responsibility totally understood and agreed to.

Gonna be a long wait til mid-2016!

[adamjp]

I hope that means you're planning to use the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI chamber. Other custom chambers might be tuned to this or that bullet for a specific performance node, but the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI chamber was designed to shoot well the very wide variety of 6.5mm bullets at moderate 6.5 Grendel velocities.

And, Drift, I'd guess that the Howa MA shares the same bolt lugs as its bigger brethren. Only the bolt body length is shortened. Thus, it should have at least the same strength as their short actions in the .308-case family. <WINK!> (Eh, Matt, you didn't see that. . . .)

P.S. The maximum average operating pressure for the 6.5 Grendel of about 50,000 psi was specifically set for conservative margins of safety for the bolt-life requirements of a fleet of rack-grade AR15s operating from the extremes of the Siberian arctic to the Middle East. If you have a stronger bolt, the cases can certainly handle more pressure.

The locking lugs of a Howa Mini are smaller than a standard Howa. Not only is the action less length, but thinner as well.

As for pushing the Grendel case. I've been running the bolt action Grendel for some time now and my best loads do not exceed published load data for the AR15 based Grendel. I do seem to get more velocity, but I put that down in part to the 21in barrel and the complete absence of a gas system to feed.

If you are looking for 200fps more velocity for a 120gn bullet out of a Howa over your AR15 Grendel I strongly suggest you buy a 260 Remington/6.5x55 Swede. The Howa Mini chambered in Grendel isn't going to do it (and have the cases last more than 3x reloads).

[BluntForceTrauma]

AJP, good info. My guess was simply based on examining the bolt length comparison in their catalog. I'm a bit surprised they'd go that route, but truly scaling down the whole action is understandable.

I'm not really feeling the need to hot-rod; if I was, as you say, it's best to step up to the next cartridge class, but it would be nice to know the capability is there to at least match what the brass can handle.