On Being John McClane

[stanc]

Stanc, people including concealed weapon holders could make mistakes as law enforcement personnel can and do. The scenario of trigger happy CWH civilians shooting each other in a shooting mayhem is unlikely. Responsible gun owners wouldn't be panning innocent people with their firearms looking for a target as your picture represented. An active shooter would be.

Whoa. Back up a minute there. I said nothing about CCWs being trigger happy.

I said that, if such an attack were to occur in an area where many citizens are armed, it looks to me like there would be a very real possibility of CCWs mistaking other CCWs for terrorists.

A little common sense can go along way.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/12/...ting-back/

It's one thing for a group of unarmed people (who know each other, and have a plan of attack) to overpower someone who is not trying to hurt them.

It's something else entirely when it's a number of strangers, and the bad guy is actually shooting real bullets, killing and maiming people.



And what the heck is it with the popularity among the shooting fraternity of heavy beards these days, anyway? In this day, I sure wouldn't want to look so much like al-Qaeda/Taliban/ISIS, etc.

[bwaites]

Studies show that armed civilians faced with mass shooting scenarios actually are significantly better at discriminating the bad guys and shooting the bad guys (and the bad guys only) than police officers. It is extremely tough to control for the variables, but statistically the numbers are in the armed civilians favor.

Average dead in a mass shooting stopped by Police: 14.3
Average dead in a mass shooting stopped by a citizen: 2.3

Chance of a bystander being shot by a police officer stopping a mass shooting: 11%
Chance of a bystander being shot by a civilian stopping a mass shooting: 2%

Criminals killed each year by Police Officers: 606
Criminals killed each year by civilians: 1527

Kennesaw Georgia had a terrible crime problem in the late 1970s and early 1980's. In 1982 the city council passed a law requiring home owners to own and possess a firearm.

Burglary rates dropped 89% in the first year, while Georgia experienced a drop of 10%. Today, violent crime rates in Kennesaw remain 85% below state and national averages, 33 years after the law was passed.

It would seem that the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding says guns in the hands of civilians work to stop crime, at least in Kennesaw!

Just as a closing thought the young daughter of a good friend said something today that had us all laughing.

"Common sense can't be taught. You are either born with it, or you are a liberal." - Cassidy C.

[stanc]

If there's only 2.3 dead, it isn't really a mass shooting, is it?

Kidding aside, those stats don't address the issue. Needed is data on potential mass shootings where 2 or more private citizens were involved.

Shootings where only one armed private citizen was on the scene don't incur the possibility of mistaking a good guy with a gun for a bad guy with a gun.

[bwaites]

If there's only 2.3 dead, it isn't really a mass shooting, is it?

Kidding aside, those stats don't address the issue. Needed is data on potential mass shootings where 2 or more private citizens were involved.

Shootings where only one armed private citizen was on the scene don't incur the possibility of mistaking a good guy with a gun for a bad guy with a gun.

They are called mass "shootings" not mass "killings" and as I said it is very difficult to control for the variables. At the only mass shooting I am aware of where there were more than 2 private citizens with weapons, the shooting was stopped without the use of those weapons.

[LR1955]

Okay, Gene. I'll give it a shot, although it remains to be seen how clearly I can answer.

The fact is that I have only thought of the rather obvious cue which has also been noted by others here: Were I to see somebody shoot one defenseless person, then another, and another, it would be reasonable to conclude that said shooter is a bad guy.

But, what if I see one person shoot another armed individual, and then he turns to aim at me. That person could be the bad guy shooting a CCW who was trying to stop him, and intending to do likewise to me. Or it could be a CCW shooting the bad guy, and then taking aim at me, thinking that I might be a second bad guy. With no way to identify who is who, I honestly cannot think of a good method to deal with the situation.

Stan:

If you see someone pointing a gun at you, what will you do?

You can stand there and get shot or do something and maybe not get shot.

LR55

[stanc]

If you see someone pointing a gun at you, what will you do?

You can stand there and get shot or do something and maybe not get shot.

Since I won't be carrying, and won't be able to "do something," I'll probably get shot. :eek:

Upon further reflection, I think I'm making much ado about a hypothetical situation that may never come to pass.

I suspect that I create such posts as a way to scratch my writing itch since I retired from writing for gun rags.

[LR1955]

Since I won't be carrying, and won't be able to "do something," I'll probably get shot. :eek:

Upon further reflection, I think I'm making much ado about a hypothetical situation that may never come to pass.

I suspect that I create such posts as a way to scratch my writing itch since I retired from writing for gun rags.

Stan:

I doubt that is your intent in this thread. I honestly think your question is well worth asking. It is a natural result of the numbers of people who are getting CCWs these days.

However, you boxed yourself in by presenting the situation you presented. If someone is pointing a gun at your chest, your options are to stand and get shot or do something and maybe not get shot. If he is right in your face, you can grapple with him. If he is at a distance, you can seek cover real fast and get the hell out of there, or if you have your pistol pointed at him you can shoot him.

In your case, you better hope he is at a distance so you can try to get away.

LR55

[ricsmall]

The way I'm interpreting the hypothetical situation, starts something like this: I hear shooting and screaming. I assess the situation from cover if possible, identify perps, then draw weapon and dispatch IF I'm in a situation that makes it possible. I'm not an expert or a veteran or even a novice for that matter. But I've shot enough in my life to be very proficient with all of my firearms and have enough common sense not to draw my sidearm and wave it around, making myself a target. Assess the situation, then react accordingly. Most important is situational awareness, which in this day is very important in any public setting. Maybe I've oversimplified this, but I like the acronym KISS.

Edit: as for the other ccw's, I hope they think similar to me, and they will realize I shot bad guy or I will realize they shot bad guy. Good question to stimulate thinking, but impossible to answer correctly. Too many variables.

Richard

[Nick]

The way I'm interpreting the hypothetical situation, starts something like this: I hear shooting and screaming. I assess the situation from cover if possible, identify perps, then draw weapon and dispatch IF I'm in a situation that makes it possible. I'm not an expert or a veteran or even a novice for that matter. But I've shot enough in my life to be very proficient with all of my firearms and have enough common sense not to draw my sidearm and wave it around, making myself a target. Assess the situation, then react accordingly. Most important is situational awareness, which in this day is very important in any public setting. Maybe I've oversimplified this, but I like the acronym KISS.

Edit: as for the other ccw's, I hope they think similar to me, and they will realize I shot bad guy or I will realize they shot bad guy. Good question to stimulate thinking, but impossible to answer correctly. Too many variables.

Richard

To go along with this, if another ccw is engaged with the shooter and you have not made yourself involved in the fight, would it not be best just to leave yourself out for the reason stance in arguing? While there are two people engaged in a fire fight and you are not sure who is who, it also seems like a good opportunity to assist by helping civilians to escape the situation if possible

[JASmith]

The way I'm interpreting the hypothetical situation, starts something like this: I hear shooting and screaming. I assess the situation from cover if possible, identify perps, then draw weapon and dispatch IF I'm in a situation that makes it possible. I'm not an expert or a veteran or even a novice for that matter. But I've shot enough in my life to be very proficient with all of my firearms and have enough common sense not to draw my sidearm and wave it around, making myself a target. Assess the situation, then react accordingly. Most important is situational awareness, which in this day is very important in any public setting. Maybe I've oversimplified this, but I like the acronym KISS.

Edit: as for the other ccw's, I hope they think similar to me, and they will realize I shot bad guy or I will realize they shot bad guy. Good question to stimulate thinking, but impossible to answer correctly. Too many variables.

Richard

This and the previous post nicely encapsulate my view of how situational awareness morphs into the actual firefight:

• Stay out of sight, deploy weapon only when one is pretty sure of situation, use the firearm, and then put it away!
  
  
  
• Continue observation and react accordingly if another bad guy shows.
  
  
  
• Prepare for rather direct action by law enforcement when they enter the scene. That is one very good reason for your weapon to be out of sight and your hands visible even before they arrive.
  

[NugginFutz]

This and the previous post nicely encapsulate my view of how situational awareness morphs into the actual firefight:

• Stay out of sight, deploy weapon only when one is pretty sure of situation, use the firearm, and then put it away!
  
  
  
• Continue observation and react accordingly if another bad guy shows.
  
  
  
• Prepare for rather direct action by law enforcement when they enter the scene. That is one very good reason for your weapon to be out of sight and your hands visible even before they arrive.
  

+1.

If multiple CCW's are in the same environment as the situation deteriorates, they will have similar intel and might or might not come to similar conclusions. The more worrisome detail is being in the act of confronting or neutralizing the active shooter(s) when LE arrives on scene. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that they will show up amped up, guns drawn and looking at every weapon they see as being in the hands of the bad guy.

[Drift]

I think StanC missed the point about the Die Hard movie(s). To enjoy them you have to "suspend disbelief " about a great many things; including telling friend from foe and just what one man can accomplish... But they wen't anti terrorist movies, they were love stories. In the first movie John McClain first appeared as a ring finger with a wedding ring on it. In another movie he turns down a woman by tapping his wedding ring on a bar. Love/marriage -and a mans decision to take any risk to protect his wife and family was what came through all that action adventure. Not that asking the question he did was wrong, but the movies premis was that a man should be willing to walk into any hell for his family. Those kinds of movies unite us all in common values both as a nation and as families and indeed as men.

[JASmith]

Well said! +1

That applies to both the love and honor message and to the need suspend belief with respect to the overt entertainment parts of a sstory like that.

[stanc]

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. The thread isn't a critique of Die Hard (my favorite Christmas movie, BTW ).

The title was chosen because so many gun owners these days fantasize about being the hero in a terrorist attack a la San Bernardino.

In reality, there's a greater probability of being struck by lightning, than of being in the middle of a terrorist shooting.

[LR1955]

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. The thread isn't a critique of Die Hard (my favorite Christmas movie, BTW ).

The title was chosen because so many gun owners these days fantasize about being the hero in a terrorist attack a la San Bernardino.

In reality, there's a greater probability of being struck by lightning, than of being in the middle of a terrorist shooting.

Absolutely Correct on both counts.

Keep it focused,guys.

LR1955

[bwaites]

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. The thread isn't a critique of Die Hard (my favorite Christmas movie, BTW ).

The title was chosen because so many gun owners these days fantasize about being the hero in a terrorist attack a la San Bernardino.

In reality, there's a greater probability of being struck by lightning, than of being in the middle of a terrorist shooting.

Depends! In California, Chicago, New York, maybe so because there are so few CCW holders in comparison to population. In Arizona, there were several at the Gabby Giffords shooting, and they were responsible partly for ending it, possibly before others were shot. They were situationally aware enough to act without drawing their own weapon, which is almost always much less complicated!

[Drift]

At one time perhaps an American had a greater chance of being struck by lightning then being in the middle of of a terrorist shooting. Now, that same persons child if walking down that same street his father did is at signficent risk being in a terrorist shooting.....In Pakistan, in Syria in Lebanon, in Iraq in the Sinai. And lots of other place the risk is growing. You dont need to be Weatherman to know when its raining.

[stanc]

At one time perhaps an American had a greater chance of being struck by lightning then being in the middle of of a terrorist shooting.

Still does. http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-s...-rampages/

You dont need to be Weatherman to know when its raining.

Yup. So far it ain't even sprinkling.

[Drift]

Well it rained a little in that Paris nightclub; and again in that gay bar in Orlando. Too bad John McClane was not there to help the innocents, like he was on that French train.

[sneaky one]

So much unnoticed, or never spoke of- Anger out there... In response, I recommend all USA citizens get a CCW. Carry it. Train with it. Know it well. Take some 3D virtual classes- shoot at potential target- 3 D bad Guys . Targets- something....

Learn it, know it , live it. Don't be paranoid, be receptive to all that's going on around you at all times- ABAP. Live in the fine line , between defense & offense. always be as ready as u can.

It's almost the wild west here-again.... defend you and yours- if a mass shoot event starts, and YOU can minimize carnage--safely-- Do It ! Just be aware of the intended target-s.

TRAIN FIRSTLY !!!