Predator Tactical Long Range Challenge

[RStewart]

Well, I guess it's to time to find out what the 6.5 and I can do in a tactical run/gun long range match. So, in December I'll be competing in the Predator Tactical Long Range Challenge match in Texas. Engaging targets at various ranges up to 1100 yards. Should be a lot of fun. Match is held to 60 qualified shooters from around the country and is part of the 2012 Precision Rifle Shooting Series. I'll try to make the horde proud.
Rick

[warped]

Good luck Rick, I know you will do well.

[Mutt]

If you don't do well, we want our money back. Oh, that's right, forgot to tell you we'll be betting ...... LOL

[RStewart]

If you don't do well, we want our money back. Oh, that's right, forgot to tell you we'll be betting ...... LOL

No pressure, huh? Guess I better get to practicing.

[mlmiller1]

I couldn't find the rules but is it just for bolt guns? It sort of looked that way but I couldn't tell & maybe no semi would be able to hang with the bolts but still wondering about the rules.

MLM

[RStewart]

I couldn't find the rules but is it just for bolt guns? It sort of looked that way but I couldn't tell & maybe no semi would be able to hang with the bolts but still wondering about the rules.

MLM

I am not aware of it being just for bolts. I know of at least one semi that will be there. Lol. Final info is supposed to come out next month.

[kamrr4437]

Yep and since you are in Louisiana with me they have commisioned me to seek you out if you dont do well lol. Good luck in your match.

Keith

[LRRPF52]

What caliber/rifle will you be using in a match that reaches out to 1100 yards? That is .300WM, 7mm WSM/Mag, .260 Rem, .338 LM territory for sure.

[RStewart]

I had originally planned to see how the Grendel would do but they are making it so arduous to shoot a semi (I would need to have about 20 mags), I'm going to go with a 700 LTR in .308.
Sorry guys, really wanted to have some fun with the G.
1100 yards is longest distance. Most are going to be closer in.

[LRRPF52]

Every practical field match I have seen has at least one or two guys with semi-autos, mainly AR10's. For the match to dictate mag capacity based on WWI rifle specs makes no sense to me, especially since even a modern bolt gun for precision field work will often have bottom metal accommodating 10-rd mags, like the AI's, Badger bottom metal, etc. Maybe if the participants mentioned that more military shooters who are assigned semi-autos in the DMR or sniper duty positions would like to attend and hone their skills on self-loaders, that could sway the organizers.

At the Finnish matches, there have been a storm of guys showing up at matches with AR10's over the past few years, where you normally only saw bolt guns before. I've also seen more and more shooters showing up with AR10's and AR15's to matches in the Rocky Mountain region as well. We are in the 21st Century, after all...

[RStewart]

Every practical field match I have seen has at least one or two guys with semi-autos, mainly AR10's. For the match to dictate mag capacity based on WWI rifle specs makes no sense to me, especially since even a modern bolt gun for precision field work will often have bottom metal accommodating 10-rd mags, like the AI's, Badger bottom metal, etc. Maybe if the participants mentioned that more military shooters who are assigned semi-autos in the DMR or sniper duty positions would like to attend and hone their skills on self-loaders, that could sway the organizers.

At the Finnish matches, there have been a storm of guys showing up at matches with AR10's over the past few years, where you normally only saw bolt guns before. I've also seen more and more shooters showing up with AR10's and AR15's to matches in the Rocky Mountain region as well. We are in the 21st Century, after all...

Reason posted up- "I don't think XXXX wants any Auto loaders due to multiple transitioning stages with clearing issues and safety respects, one could do it effectively with lots of mags loaded appropriately however this match favors bolt guns and is preferred by the MD. Not saying there is an exclusion just a strong preference at this point."

I really wanted to push the Grendel and see what it and I can do. But, it's their match, so if I want to play I gotta do it by the match rules. I'm just not sure what the difference would be between a loaded bolt gun on safety and a semi on safety.

[LR1955]

I had originally planned to see how the Grendel would do but they are making it so arduous to shoot a semi (I would need to have about 20 mags), I'm going to go with a 700 LTR in .308.
Sorry guys, really wanted to have some fun with the G.
1100 yards is longest distance. Most are going to be closer in.

Rich:

This doesn't make sense. Why would you need up to 20 magazines? The bolt gunners will mostly have five shot repeaters and must reload by hand as well. Or they must need up to 20 magazines as well if their bolt rifle uses a detachable magazine. If you give it a try you will find it faster to hand load a magazine and insert it into the rifle than hand loading five individual rounds into a short action bolt rifle that has an optic further restricting access to the magazine.

LR1955

[RStewart]

Rich:

This doesn't make sense. Why would you need up to 20 magazines? The bolt gunners will mostly have five shot repeaters and must reload by hand as well. Or they must need up to 20 magazines as well if their bolt rifle uses a detachable magazine. If you give it a try you will find it faster to hand load a magazine and insert it into the rifle than hand loading five individual rounds into a short action bolt rifle that has an optic further restricting access to the magazine.

LR1955

LR-
The 20 mags is probably a bit of an exaggeration and some frustration on my part. I'm just going off the "one could do it effectively with lots of mags loaded appropriately" comment from them. Most of the folks I have talked with that shoot these use mag loaded rifles, but I'm sure there will be some that use blind mags. I guess it's more disappointment right now than the possible final reality, so bear with me. It's like having your first date and then finding out later your mother is coming along, too. Takes some of the fun out of it.

There will be more definitive information as regards COF coming out in October. I have 7 G mags, so once I see what the COF is I'll make a final decision. But, if they are already not wanting semi's, I'm sure I would be under an "eagle eye" shooting mine.

I really want to expand my competitive shooting experience, but don't want to have to shoot 3 different calibers to do it.

[LR1955]

LR-
The 20 mags is probably a bit of an exaggeration and some frustration on my part. I'm just going off the "one could do it effectively with lots of mags loaded appropriately" comment from them. Most of the folks I have talked with that shoot these use mag loaded rifles, but I'm sure there will be some that use blind mags. I guess it's more disappointment right now than the possible final reality, so bear with me. It's like having your first date and then finding out later your mother is coming along, too. Takes some of the fun out of it.

There will be more definitive information as regards COF coming out in October. I have 7 G mags, so once I see what the COF is I'll make a final decision. But, if they are already not wanting semi's, I'm sure I would be under an "eagle eye" shooting mine.

I really want to expand my competitive shooting experience, but don't want to have to shoot 3 different calibers to do it.

RS:

He, he, he. You won't expand your competitive shooting experience without using a couple of different cartridges and rifles. One cartridge and one rifle type won't do well in everything and probably will be such a compromise that it won't really do well in any single thing.

With all that said, you would be amazed at how difficult it is to plan, resource, and run a competitive event with a-lot of moving parts such as Three Gun or the type of match you are describing. I have done such things for more than a few years now and they are extremely difficult to get right. In my case this means the event must adequately evaluate performance based on a specific training intent, must maintain individual range regulations and restrictions, must have a scoring system that corresponds with the major training emphasis, must be challenging enough to actually evaluate something while not so challenging that it overwhelms the shooter, must be within the resource constraints of a unit, and finally it must have very efficient through put. No two of these types of 'competitive' events have ever been the same although you find that the scoring methodology is very similar although not identical either.

It is a bit easier for a civilian club and range but normally I find that civilians have immense problems defining what it is they are trying to evaluate and as importantly, how to evaluate those things. These can turn into nightmares for competitors as the guys who plan these exercises normally fail to actually rehearse the same to see if what they are demanding can even be done.

If you have influence with your club, you may want to do a sanity check on their entire plan.

LR1955

[RStewart]

This match is not at my home range. It's part of a series of matches held throughout the country with different COF's and different MD's at each one. I'm not questioning their wisdom in their decision, but this was going to be my first match of this type and I was just looking forward to seeing what I and the 6.5 were capable of. I'm sure other matches I attend in the series may be more semi- friendly.

I'm already competitively shooting .223 and 6.5G at 600 yards. I want to be as proficient with those as I can before adding another caliber to the arsenal at some point. And since the G and the .308 have quasi-comparable abilities, I was hoping to get the best of both worlds.

As far as setting up and running matches, I have the utmost respect for the people who put them together. It is a labor of love for most who do it and a lot of effort goes into putting on a safe and fun match. We have our Field Precision Rifle matches, but they are not nearly as intricate as the run and gun matches you have been associated with putting on. For having done that, you have my respect.

Rick

[Mutt]

If someone could explain ....... I don't understand why a person would need so many mags??

[RStewart]

I have a friend who has shot a few of these and he said it is more about verifying the rifle is empty between parts of a stage while on the move. A bolt rifle can be easily checked by leaving the bolt open. When they get to the next part of the stage they just close the bolt on the next round, so they can use less mags by having higher capacity ones. A semi-auto has to drop the mag at the current part of the stage, lock the bolt back, move to the next part of the stage and load a new mag before firing. So, if there are 5 parts to the stage, you need 5 mags. Very time-consuming. When in Rome.......

[LRRPF52]

I've had to deal with the same safety considerations during sniper comps where one of the stages had 3 firing positions. The RO's had to confirm that the team's weapons were clear in-between each position, and it was a limited time event. I also had the rail-mounted brass-catcher on my AR10, making it even more fun. Even with the above limitations, I smoked all the bolt gun times by about 2-3 minutes. There were a lot of guys who were approaching the stage like a "take your time, precision rifle, we have all day" stage, and they didn't even clear the first position by the time the 5 minutes was up. I started shooting at the 3rd position at 2:36.

I approached the stage like a 3-gun stage, only with extended distances out to 450m with extreme wind conditions, from alternate positions (standing barricade, standing base of tower, & seated behind tree log). It was the funnest stage of the competition. I had dope on decals on the turrets, so dialing was extremely fast and straightforward. Almost every other team had far superior calibers than I did, with a semi-auto .308, but some forgot where their zeros were on the turrets, and others had issues that were painful to watch. I think a lot of guys figured they didn't need to dial dope for wind since the targets were closer than 600m or 700m, but the wind was really bad, as the range was on the coastal beach. The organizers also placed the targets among beach vegetation, so you couldn't see your impact register for corrections, and it was overcast the whole match, so trace was rarely seen, especially at closer distances. That's one of the main reasons why I like field stages, totally distant from a pristine flat-range environment (where you can insulate your equipment and methods from nature and Mr. Murphy).

With an auto-loader in real-world or competition, you need to really become proficient with clearing the weapon quickly, as well as dealing with malf's. As soon as you encounter a malf, diagnose, and perform immediate or remedial action. That GAP AR10 ran like a champ for me throughout FinnSniper 2008-zero issues. Last year, I scooped up a ton of sand with one of my 7.62 Pmags, even though I kept the protective covers on them in the pouches. It screwed my .260 AR10 up bigtime for our final stage with that sand. A lot of bolt guns had problems in that deep, beach sand as well. The thing with bolt gun malfs is that the action is open and accessible, so you can easily clear them usually with your fingers. You can't reach into most auto-loaders, especially the AR.

I prefer competitions where the RO's have already vetted the participants for big boy rules, and hot weapons rule the road, but you simply can't do that with a lot of unknown shooters. There are so many shooters who have not learned proper safety, and they don't think twice about sweeping you with their muzzle, or even keeping a muzzle trained on you inadvertently. I have 4 extra holes in my body as a result of such negligence, and I was already anal about muzzle awareness before that incident. I turn into a skunk real quick if I see some safety violations like that.

Once I vet shooters who prove they can maintain the safety circle, trigger finger discipline, selector discipline, and such, I don't care what direction they are facing on the range. I do totally understand and support organizers or trainers in whatever safety protocols they have, since it's their way or the highway, and I won't let that stop me from gaining added experience in employing my tools in different or challenging scenarios. Let us know how the match goes...

[RStewart]

There are so many shooters who have not learned proper safety, and they don't think twice about sweeping you with their muzzle, or even keeping a muzzle trained on you inadvertently.

I do totally understand and support organizers or trainers in whatever safety protocols they have, since it's their way or the highway, and I won't let that stop me from gaining added experience in employing my tools in different or challenging scenarios.

I think that is what may be driving this more than anything. I have not given up on the semi, but will wait until I get more info before deciding. The greatest day on a range or in a competition can be ruined by a lapse in safety protocols.

[YutYut]

We qualifed for table 2 last week at the range and this boot pfc kept slamming the bottom of the mag when we got to thr speed reload portion. He would double feed everytime and not know what to do so he would swing around ask for help WITH HIS WEAPON ON FIRE TRIGGER ON THE FINGER still carried at the ready. I couldnt believe it. He was failed after an initial warning.
Ive never seen or been a part of a safety violation that leads to someone leaving with holes nor do i ever want to be.

The rifle ranch is only about a 2 hour drive from where i live. Its gonna be a cold one. Based off the last few years- low of 30 high of 60. We usually dont get moisture until late dec but then again tx is the most bi polar state i have ever lived in. gpod luck in the match. I wish it was open to the public though.