AK-12 produced in 6.5 Grendel?

[montana]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/...5-grendel/

[Mountain Man]

I like it. A lot.

[am4966]

I have a gunsmith buddy who built a AK in 6.8 and his customer gave him a Mauser barrel to work with.

[KentuckyBuddha]

The AK modification sounds pretty interesting. I have no idea how you would do that.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Very cool, if true. But, Gawd, those Russkies go out of their way to make ugly guns!

[stanc]

Eye of the beholder, John. Eye of the beholder.

I'd rate looks of the basic AK on a par with a "plain Jane" AR15.*

With a little cosmetic surgery, IMO an AK can look pretty good.







*Nobody, not even Russkis, makes uglier rifles than the French... :eek:

[biodsl]

Maybe not Grendel at all...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/...ed-russia/

[BluntForceTrauma]

Yeah, Stan, THAT AK is lookin' pretty good.

Biodsl, that article is definitely referencing a unique Russki 6.5x39, which just goes to show that us Americans are not the only ones afflicted with N.I.H. syndrome. There is not a soul created since the world began that can resist fiddling with a cartridge design! Having said THAT, it is my speculation that any AK-12 sold to the U.S. market would be chambered in genuine 6.5 Grendel from Barnaul.

[stanc]

Found a thread on a Russian forum, with a post which contained an interesting drawing.
Notice that the author apparently expected the 6.5x39 to have a steel-core projectile:


http://guns.allzip.org/topic/48/950768.html#p104

[Variable]

Found a thread on a Russian forum, with a post which contained an interesting drawing.
Notice that the author apparently expected the 6.5x39 to have a steel-core projectile:


http://guns.allzip.org/topic/48/950768.html#p104

Very interesting find Stan. It makes me wish I could read Russian. I could see from the links that the've scoped us out...

[stanc]

Very interesting find Stan. It makes me wish I could read Russian. I could see from the links that the've scoped us out...

I didn't notice the links to this forum. That makes me think the 6,5x39 drawings may be 6.5 Grendel, and depiction of the steel-core bullet probably based upon Bill Alexander saying that's what the Wolf FMJ would have.

I used google translate on the title. It reads: 6.5mm intermediate cartridge. Back to basics

Curious that the drawing I posted is not visible now...

[stanc]

P.S. I just noticed that post #60 has a brief comment about the AK-12, which translates as: "Test AK-12 cal. 6.5x39 clearly showed its 1.5 fold advantage in almost all characteristics in comparison with the standard calibers"

P.P.S. I see they have the same kind of discussions as on this forum. Reference post #102:

"But in general the AK-47 should have been done originally in 6.5x39 or 6.5x42"

"Absolutely in dyrdochka! Were in fact the same experience in 1945 about 6.35x42 - but won the economy - more precisely, not to scientific research was then ...
But damn why in 1974, did we step on the same rake as the Americans?! IMHO just 6.35x42 cartridge ideal for assault rifles, even better than 6.5x38 GRENDEL!"

[montana]

Good work stanc, thanks for the translation.

[Variable]

P.S. I just noticed that post #60 has a brief comment about the AK-12, which translates as: "Test AK-12 cal. 6.5x39 clearly showed its 1.5 fold advantage in almost all characteristics in comparison with the standard calibers"

P.P.S. I see they have the same kind of discussions as on this forum. Reference post #102:

"But in general the AK-47 should have been done originally in 6.5x39 or 6.5x42"

"Absolutely in dyrdochka! Were in fact the same experience in 1945 about 6.35x42 - but won the economy - more precisely, not to scientific research was then ...
But damn why in 1974, did we step on the same rake as the Americans?! IMHO just 6.35x42 cartridge ideal for assault rifles, even better than 6.5x38 GRENDEL!"

Hee hee, we aren't so different after all.

[LRRPF52]

P.S. I just noticed that post #60 has a brief comment about the AK-12, which translates as: "Test AK-12 cal. 6.5x39 clearly showed its 1.5 fold advantage in almost all characteristics in comparison with the standard calibers"

P.P.S. I see they have the same kind of discussions as on this forum. Reference post #102:

"But in general the AK-47 should have been done originally in 6.5x39 or 6.5x42"

"Absolutely in dyrdochka! Were in fact the same experience in 1945 about 6.35x42 - but won the economy - more precisely, not to scientific research was then ...
But damn why in 1974, did we step on the same rake as the Americans?! IMHO just 6.35x42 cartridge ideal for assault rifles, even better than 6.5x38 GRENDEL!"

That's hilarious. Russians have a lot of funny euphamisms that I quite enjoy. There is a sentiment from the more professional types that 5.45x39 is inferior in many ways to good ol' 7.62x39. They had a lot of blue on blue problems with 5.45 because the projectiles are so prone to yawing, that in urbanized or built-up terrain, you get skipping off structures into your assault elements who are in position to enter and clear, with the support by fire positions having to be very careful with lead element trace.

Lead element trace is a phrase used by gunners when tracking their supporting fires in front of a maneuver element, and is a critical task that comes into play during infantry live fire exercises.

The 6.35x42 actually would make a great assault rifle cartridge, since it is flat, with more energy than the 5.56 pills.

[VASCAR2]

So this brings us back to the million dollar question, does carrying a rifle with 26 rounds of 6.5 Grendel have enough of a performance edge over 5.45 X 39 or 5.56 X 45 to warrant changing cartridges. If the reliability of the AK -12 and AK-74 were the same would the Russian military abandon the 5.45 X 39 for a 6.5 X 38 or a round similar to the 6.5 Grendel? I have to think the bean counters would intercede and say there is to negligible a difference to warrent the cost to change. I could see where it might have been adventagious for the Russians to go from 7.62 X 39 to 6.5 X 39 but since transitioning to the AK-74 I can't see the Russians changing to a 6.5 Grendel chambered AK-12. The AK-12 in 6.5 Grendel may garner significant sales to justify production but I doubt it will see wide scale adoption.

Unless an optimized new 6.5 caliber assault rifle cartridge that bridges the Gap between the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.5 Cr/6.5X47/260Remington is developed with a new rifle that is not required to use a STANG mag dimensions do I ever envision the West switching from the 5.56 X 45. The new rifle would have to be just a reliable as the M-16/M-4 with greater modularity to have a chance to be adopted IMHO.

[LRRPF52]

The Russians have to prosecute their current foreign policy with the weapons they have, not the ones they want. Their rifle marksmanship approach is nothing like ours, and is geared towards conscripts with very minimal expectations in terms of traditional rifleman engagement distances.

[stanc]

So this brings us back to the million dollar question, does carrying a rifle with 26 rounds of 6.5 Grendel have enough of a performance edge over 5.45 X 39 or 5.56 X 45 to warrant changing cartridges.

I imagine it'd be possible to develop a 30-rd magazine for 6.5 Grendel rifles.

Aside from that matter, I doubt that anybody has yet done the appropriate shooting tests needed to evaluate how much (if any) better 6.5 Grendel weapons would be.

[VASCAR2]

The Russians have to prosecute their current foreign policy with the weapons they have, not the ones they want. Their rifle marksmanship approach is nothing like ours, and is geared towards conscripts with very minimal expectations in terms of traditional rifleman engagement distances.

I think your right LRRPF52 the Russians have never put the value on individuals as we have here in the US. Our tactics and leadership seem quite different than the Combloc and Chineese. After reading this thread this morning I was mulling over the fact that the 6.5 X 39 chambered AK-12 is in development. I'm afraid the Russian Bear has awaken from hibernation and is aggressively hungry for power and territory. I was just trying to get some conversation going about the merits of the AK-12 development.

[Variable]

I imagine it'd be possible to develop a 30-rd magazine for 6.5 Grendel rifles.

[insert screechy mom voice here] [SIZE="5"]What? WHat? WHAT??????[/SIZE] [/screechy mom voice]

You mean you don't demand to see proof before you'll believe it's possible? :p