Tedward, I am in the ammunition business and I can tell you that it is VERY hard to do no matter how much you want to do it. We ventured into making ammunition and found that supply just cannot keep up with demand. I could buy some 20k machines that just sit there and rust while they wait for primers, powder, bullets, and cases. It isn't just brass that people are having a tough time getting. It is most all of the components. And small little contractors are going to have a very difficult time doing it. Especially when there are all kinds of federal, city, state, county, etc. laws and ordinances that stand in the way. For example, if you contract with someone to have them build ammo for you, they must have a FFL 06, a $2000 ITAR certification, a powder and primer magazine, usually a fenced property, etc. It sounds like you have found a need. Why don't you fill it and tell us how easy it was?
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Ted: This type of Subbing is not as easy as you think. Insurance is a problem with Subbing. There only one major insurer for a firearms company. It costs us upwards of $20,000 per year in premiums and they will not approve of Subbing ammo manufacturing out if it has our name on it. We will not hire temporary help for Ammo production. I can easily imagine a disgruntled employee causing all kinds of problems. My .02.
Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms
pf15@pf15.com
"Precision - The Pinnacle of Perfection."
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longdayjake Wrote:Tedward, I am in the ammunition business and I can tell you that it is VERY hard to do no matter how much you want to do it. We ventured into making ammunition and found that supply just cannot keep up with demand. I could buy some 20k machines that just sit there and rust while they wait for primers, powder, bullets, and cases. It isn't just brass that people are having a tough time getting. It is most all of the components. And small little contractors are going to have a very difficult time doing it. Especially when there are all kinds of federal, city, state, county, etc. laws and ordinances that stand in the way. For example, if you contract with someone to have them build ammo for you, they must have a FFL 06, a $2000 ITAR certification, a powder and primer magazine, usually a fenced property, etc. It sounds like you have found a need. Why don't you fill it and tell us how easy it was?
I agree, Fire Marshals are a problem too. And we are having issues with getting powder too!
"Precision - The Pinnacle of Perfection."
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Tedward Wrote:Like Underwood, there are a ammunition manufacture I buy Beowulf from regularly. They even have the exact same box as A.A. http://www.underwoodammo.com/50beowulf.aspx
All of the Wulf ammo I have bought from Underwood has come in cheap-ass plastic tupperware that usually break during transport.
GREAT ammo though!
I have made my wishes known to them about producing Grendel ammo...
![[Image: DSCN1754_zps61565e80.jpg]](http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b5/td25x/DSCN1754_zps61565e80.jpg)
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PrecisionFirearms Wrote:I agree, Fire Marshals are a problem too. And we are having issues with getting powder too!
Ok OK...Sounds easy so guess that's why hand loads at home are just easier...
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Buster Wrote:All of the Wulf ammo I have bought from Underwood has come in cheap-ass plastic tupperware that usually break during transport.
GREAT ammo though!
I have made my wishes known to them about producing Grendel ammo...
Yes I had the same crappy plastic boxes too and since then they are selling them not in lots of 50 but 20. And the boxes are the same as AA. I can't post a picture because it's all gone but they were just like them.
Either way, what Mark and LDJ said makes sense. Sounds too costly so looks like just getting brass and loading my own or buying from Mark. He will hopefully be loading his brass soon.
Or just use the Hornady, many other Avenues to drive down.
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The way I read the post from pf , they will only be selling to previous customers that bought uppers or rifles while supplies are limited
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If others need some, I will be glad to see what I can do. Just send me the emails.
pf15@pf15.com
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Mark, as usual, demonstrates his class and willingness to help others. He has ALWAYS been a standup manufacturer and one of the best to deal with.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Tedwards venting of his frustrations are taken by me. Grendel ammo has never been what I would call plentiful. Demand has out strippped supply for what the last decade. Availability of ammo took a nose dive what 3 quarters ago? And and now we are told it might get worse. When America was productive we won a world war in 5 years. We were able to put a man on the moon in less time than American can produce an adaquate supply of Grendel ammo! For a decade we have heard how difficult it is to make enough itty bitty low tech cartridges.
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hm2 clark Wrote:Tedwards venting of his frustrations are taken by me. Grendel ammo has never been what I would call plentiful. Demand has out strippped supply for what the last decade. Availability of ammo took a nose dive what 3 quarters ago? And and now we are told it might get worse. When America was productive we won a world war in 5 years. We were able to put a man on the moon in less time than American can produce an adaquate supply of Grendel ammo! For a decade we have heard how difficult it is to make enough itty bitty low tech cartridges.
Supply is supply. You can't load cartridges unless you have brass, and only a very few places produce brass. Since its still a niche cartridge, there isn't the million dollar budgets to get huge amounts of brass made like there is for .223/5.56. And even with those, its not like we are awash in a sea of cheap ammo.
Its not just the technology, its much more.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
My post was not to be critical to AA or any other ammo maker. Rather I was trying to (1) be supportive of the customers of the ammo makers. After all, after 10 years of being told things like "its complicated " or "it'll get there when it gets there" or "our computer cant do that" it gets frustrating to the end users. (2) I was trying to point out that the law of supply and demand should have eased supply shortages after 10 years of high demand and low supply. Maybe the law of supply and demand isnt a law after all; maybe its just a theory. Again, if my post offended any ammo maker I apologise, I urge them to ignore my rambelings and concentrate on producing ammo instead.
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hm2 clark Wrote:My post was not to be critical to AA or any other ammo maker. Rather I was trying to (1) be supportive of the customers of the ammo makers. After all, after 10 years of being told things like "its complicated " or "it'll get there when it gets there" or "our computer cant do that" it gets frustrating to the end users. (2) I was trying to point out that the law of supply and demand should have eased supply shortages after 10 years of high demand and low supply. Maybe the law of supply and demand isnt a law after all; maybe its just a theory. Again, if my post offended any ammo maker I apologise, I urge them to ignore my rambelings and concentrate on producing ammo instead.
I don't think anyone took offense. AA, PF, LB and Hornady all want to make money, so selling all the ammo they can is a good plan. The big guys just all happen to be able to sell all the 5.56 and .308 they can make.
Unfortunately, the demand is much higher than anyone can supply, so the law works only one way....higher prices!
We can't even get enough 5.56/.223 or .308 brass to drive the price down, much less niche cartridges like the Grendel, Creedmoor, or 6.5x47!
While there is no glut of 5.56 or .308, we will not see market easing for the niche cartridges, because the brass manufacturers would rather run 24/7 on one case than do changeovers. When those two glut, then we'll see more Grendel brass and loaded ammo.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Quote:After all, after 10 years of being told things like "its complicated " or "it'll get there when it gets there" or "our computer cant do that" it gets frustrating to the end users. (2) I was trying to point out that the law of supply and demand should have eased supply shortages after 10 years of high demand and low supply. Maybe the law of supply and demand isn't a law after all; maybe its just a theory. Again, if my post offended any ammo maker I apologise, I urge them to ignore my rambelings and concentrate on producing ammo instead.
"*EDIT* It has been probably 2 years since I last checked in on stocking grendel components so this info may be outdated." I can tell you the real reason why Grendel stuff has been too hard to get right now. I looked into stocking and selling Grendel components. Specifically from Lapua. Without revealing too much about my finances, lets just say that I have plenty of money to purchase stuff and I am willing to put quite a sizable investment into it. However, the US distributors don't seem to want to sell anything at a significant enough discount to me to allow me to compete with places like AA. Lapua itself won't even consider talking to me directly. So, I can buy a bunch of it, list it at high prices with low margins, and get a reputation for being a price gouger. Not sure what else I can do. I have wanted to get into the market for years now but there appears to be a few suppliers that have a corner on the pricing.
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longdayjake Wrote:"*EDIT* It has been probably 2 years since I last checked in on stocking grendel components so this info may be outdated." I can tell you the real reason why Grendel stuff has been too hard to get right now. I looked into stocking and selling Grendel components. Specifically from Lapua. Without revealing too much about my finances, lets just say that I have plenty of money to purchase stuff and I am willing to put quite a sizable investment into it. However, the US distributors don't seem to want to sell anything at a significant enough discount to me to allow me to compete with places like AA. Lapua itself won't even consider talking to me directly. So, I can buy a bunch of it, list it at high prices with low margins, and get a reputation for being a price gouger. Not sure what else I can do. I have wanted to get into the market for years now but there appears to be a few suppliers that have a corner on the pricing.
LDJ,
You may want to read this, then start making some inquiries. Lapua has made a lot of changes in the past year. You also may want to talk to them at SHOT.
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1357...h52ruk991f
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
Thank you. I have contacted the wolf distributor first. We will see where it goes from there.
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hm2 clark Wrote:...I was trying to point out that the law of supply and demand should have eased supply shortages after 10 years of high demand and low supply. Maybe the law of supply and demand isnt a law after all; maybe its just a theory...
That is the basic law of capitalism. Not so much in a communist society where the government to nationalize your business at a whim.
We're sitting in a country that's somewhere in between. Our government can set additional regulations at a whim and sue you into submission if it so chooses.
I think this likely has something to do with the fact we haven't seen new companies jump into the arena.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
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bwaites Wrote:LDJ,
You may want to read this, then start making some inquiries. Lapua has made a lot of changes in the past year. You also may want to talk to them at SHOT.
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1357...h52ruk991f
Two thumbs up for Graff and Sons. Have been doing bussiness with them off and on for over 25 years. Bought my first rifle from them in '86. Good folks, prices are reasonable.
Quote:LDJ,
You may want to read this, then start making some inquiries. Lapua has made a lot of changes in the past year. You also may want to talk to them at SHOT.
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/...7637h52ruk991f
Okay. The newest update: After contacting the distributors for lapua brass I have found that I can buy it for the same price directly from AA. Distributor fail.
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