stronger bolt material for high pressure loads??

[arnie]

If you want 2700 fps out of a Grendel ,shoot a 100 grain bullet .

[BluntForceTrauma]

I was wondering if there is a stronger material grendel bolts could be made of that would allow high pressure loading up to say 65k psi.

The short answer is "yes." I discussed this with Bill Alexander a few years ago. He said that given proper engineering and proper metallurgy it could be done. (He rattled off a couple specs of steel alloys that could handle it, but I don't remember them.) But you'd have bolts costing $500 or more!

And then you'd have to strengthen the barrel extension. And then you'd have to strengthen the threads on the barrel. And then. . . .

John

[mongoosesnipe]

We need a larger market base. This is what I think the extra fps would gain us.

so you think we should have hot super grendel ammo available that will break any gun it goes into other than an idealistic super grendel, and you think that will be a selling point to get another major ammo maker into the grendel market......

[cory]

so you think we should have hot super grendel ammo available that will break any gun it goes into other than an idealistic super grendel, and you think that will be a selling point to get another major ammo maker into the grendel market......

No, no, no that's not what I mean. When a casual shooter/hunter starts looking into a non traditional round, what's the first thing they compare? Muzzle Velocity. We all know that's a mute point with the 6.5's ballistics, the casual shooter/hunter doesn't know that. If that MV can turn someone to the Grendel as opposed to another round, that's another potential customer for the major ammo manufacturers.

That's what it'll take to bring the Winchesters and other guys online with the Grendel, X# of potential customers.

I'm in non way saying we push the Grendel to magnum pressures (65ksi). I'm only suggesting the 58ksi, which would make it still safe for hand loaders to load to ~60ksi with only a shortened bolt life. Which I don't even know if 60ksi would be possible with current powder selection and the Grendel's max powder capacity.

If an ammo manufacturer were to offer rounds in that pressure (58ksi), and a box of that ammo was put into the original AR15 design by mistake the weapon would be fine assuming the weapon was built properly. It would take a significant amount of bad decisions to see the problems you mention. What would likely happen is we'd see +P Grendel ammo.

More choices for the Grendel horde, how is this a bad thing?

[BluntForceTrauma]

Cory has a point. A good one. A savvy one. Think of the 6.8 SPC. For the part of the market that wasn't attracted to it because of the "tacticool" It Was Invented by Speshul Phorces and Is Fer Shur Gonna Be Adopted by the Marines, there was the part of the market attracted to It Exceeds .270 Velocities!!!

A mindless focus on muzzle velocity is not fair. It's ignorant. It makes the job harder for 6.5 Grendel marketers, but that's the reality of how most of the American market thinks.

In view of THAT, what I'd suggest is a fast 6.5 Grendel factory loading of a light hunting bullet (oh, 100 grains? but keeping SAAMI pressures) and advertise the hell out of that, just to grab attention. THEN you can sell them on the hidden beauty of high BCs in the heavier bullets. Sound like a plan?

John

[JASmith]

...If an ammo manufacturer were to offer rounds in that pressure (58ksi), and a box of that ammo was put into the original AR15 design by mistake the weapon would be fine assuming the weapon was built properly. It would take a significant amount of bad decisions to see the problems you mention. What would likely happen is we'd see +P Grendel ammo.

More choices for the Grendel horde, how is this a bad thing?

Well, one good result of having a bunch of +P (58ksi) ammo around is that owners of short-throated Grendels would have had instant feed back that something was wrong with their rifle as a result of the cratered primers, streaks on the case head, generally abused brass, and lots of broken bolts. I guess that is really a bad thing!

I recall that there were a lot of broken bolts earlier in the history of the Grendel, and one of our members dug through the posts and determined that the vast majority of these incidents came from handloaders. Speaking from personal experience early in my reloading career, I was also one who wanted the most MV -- call it a misguided manhood thing. One of the probable contributors to broken bolts is that many of these guys were loading to levels where they routinely got classic high pressure indicators and then picked a go to load somewhere at that level, which is well above the 52,000 psi SAAMI ceiling. Bolt fatigue sets in a lot faster when higher stresses are put on it.

Back to the velocity thing, one of the reasons (other than marketing by Big Green) folks took a shine to the 6.8 SPC is that Remington and others did not hesitate to implement lightweight bullets in the .277" diameter. That boosted velocities. It also gave this latter-day recoil-averse shooter softer load options for his .270!

So, a path to velocity is to go lighter. One of the long-standing benefits of the 6.5 bore is the proliferation of heavy-for caliber bullets. This means that the Grendel can take advantage of these good BCs and turn in excellent long range performance. Most hunters rarely take shots out as far as 300 yards, let alone 500+ yards, meaning that the Grendel would be OK with shorter range bullets for most deer and hog shooting. There is, however, some hesitation over going much lighter than standard hunting weights because experiences with the .243 Winchester and 6mm Remington showed us that a 90 grain cup and core bullet presses the light side of what one should consider for hunting the heavier deer.

This takes us to one of the few places where I will grit my teeth and advocate a bullet technology soon to be mandatory where I live. A 75 to 90 gr lead-free expanding bullet is arguably good for all North American deer. The 75 gr lead-free bullet gives a wound channel area that is about the same as a 115 grain classic bullet like the Core-Lokt while the 90 gr lead-free is more the equivalent of a 135 grain classic hunting bullet. Going to these bullets would then allow one to get interesting velocities while assuring decent deer-anchoring terminal ballistics.

A few of us would need to shoot a bunch of these bullets, collect records of harvested animals, and publish results in places where casual hunters start asking where to get this stuff. The challenge is where to get these lightweight custom bullets for load development, ballistics tests, and field results.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Jinx! Ha!

John

[cory]

Well, one good result of having a bunch of +P (58ksi) ammo around is that owners of short-throated Grendels would have had instant feed back that something was wrong with their rifle as a result of the cratered primers, streaks on the case head, generally abused brass, and lots of broken bolts. I guess that is really a bad thing!

I recall that there were a lot of broken bolts earlier in the history of the Grendel, and one of our members dug through the posts and determined that the vast majority of these incidents came from handloaders. Speaking from personal experience early in my reloading career, I was also one who wanted the most MV -- call it a misguided manhood thing. One of the probable contributors to broken bolts is that many of these guys were loading to levels where they routinely got classic high pressure indicators and then picked a go to load somewhere at that level, which is well above the 52,000 psi SAAMI ceiling. Bolt fatigue sets in a lot faster when higher stresses are put on it.

Point well taken, but I did say assuming the weapon was built properly. As we know those barrels were not.

I completely agree with the second paragraph. And I think we can agree that those were likely from 100+ HOT loads, likely 2 or 3 hundred plus.

[Drifter]

I've used a 6.8 quite a bit. The 6.8mm 95gr Barnes TTSX and 100gr Nosler AB are both very effective for hunting applications at "typical" distances, in part, due to velocity. I think the Grendel would be very well served by a (relatively) high-BC 6.5mm 107gr hunting bullet (maybe along the lines of a Nosler ABLR). Perhaps sort of a compromise between velocity and BC for the Grendel.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Yeah, I like Drifter's idea of a compromise. It's tempting to just go Ballz Out 60-grainer to get a sizzling, hyping hot MV, but we gotta TRY and be sensible. I'd still like to see a 100gr because it's still light, at three digits it seems like a serious weight for big game, and it gives a nod to better BC than the competition. A Nosler ABLR would seem almost ideal. Or a 100gr Hornady GMX. I still consider the Barnes 100 TTSX to be a little fatter in the ogive than it needs to be for best BC, and it's expensive, but it's a valid choice.

John

[mongoosesnipe]

No, no, no that's not what I mean. When a casual shooter/hunter starts looking into a non traditional round, what's the first thing they compare? Muzzle Velocity. We all know that's a mute point with the 6.5's ballistics, the casual shooter/hunter doesn't know that. If that MV can turn someone to the Grendel as opposed to another round, that's another potential customer for the major ammo manufacturers.

That's what it'll take to bring the Winchesters and other guys online with the Grendel, X# of potential customers.

I'm in non way saying we push the Grendel to magnum pressures (65ksi). I'm only suggesting the 58ksi, which would make it still safe for hand loaders to load to ~60ksi with only a shortened bolt life. Which I don't even know if 60ksi would be possible with current powder selection and the Grendel's max powder capacity.

If an ammo manufacturer were to offer rounds in that pressure (58ksi), and a box of that ammo was put into the original AR15 design by mistake the weapon would be fine assuming the weapon was built properly. It would take a significant amount of bad decisions to see the problems you mention. What would likely happen is we'd see +P Grendel ammo.

More choices for the Grendel horde, how is this a bad thing?

We already do not have the powder in order to meet existing factory velocities by hand loading I would be happy just getting one of the Grendel powders onto the market and leave the pressure where it is, rather than trying to get a super Grendel bolt on the market which I think would actual lead to more ham than good, the Grendel is already a bit of a bolt breaker iwith people chasing factory velocity adding 100 fps to that goal is not going to do anything but tarnish the reputation of a great round, it's funny that people seem to accept velocity limitations in some cases and not others

The 45-70 comes to mind the round is one of the oldest rounds still loaded today and has been pushed well beyond its original intentions oddly enough is not really like original black powder loadings lacked killing power there were cases with more capacity but they were developed to add range for people who wanted to get a few more yards between themselves and the 2000 pound buffalo they were shooting but other than the express loading of 45-90 used in the 1886 Winchester anything bigger was single shot and has fallen by the wayside, given modern metals and stronger designs from the trapdoor rifle the 45-70 was designed to go into with the advent of smokeless powder

If you look up load data you will see data for trap door, lever and ruger, truth is in a strong gun you can load the 45-70 up until your shoulder says mercy which is why all the bigger cases have gone away you don't need 70% more capacity than the 45-70 in order to kill just about anything that walks the earth, but the big three load and sell 45-70 at trapdoor pressures hornady has the leverlution load and there is buffalo bore but they are only slightly pushing the envelope and put all sorts of warnings on the package, it was enough of a popularity thing that marlin and hornady teamed up to make the 450 marlin which is basically a liability proof 45-70+P but it didn't really catch on and the 45-70 is still top of the heap when it comes to a lever gun anyway

That being said you don't see a whole lot of people pushing the 30-30 into something it isn't another example of what the big 3 will and won't do is the 8mm Mauser it will easily throw a 150 gr bullet to 2900fps, 180 to 2700 and a 200 to 2600 all having around 3000 pounds of energy it easily matches a 30-06 and actually exceeds it in the heavy bullet performance but the big 3 loading of 8mm mauser are relegated to 30-30 performance because the gew88 rifle which has a 318 bore as opposed to a 323 bore and was was rated at a lower pressure being designed in 1888 at the very cusp of smokeless powder making it potentially dangerous to allow full power rounds designed for the 1998 action for sale, European loadings are available which provide full performance hornady and nosler both offer a respectable load for the round if you can find it but the big 3 all load a 170 gr bullet to 2360fps

Basically hot rodding a round will not serve to attract manufactors to a product, you may succeed in attracting lawyers but that won't much help the cause

What would be useful is getting the weight of a large arms manufacture behind the round producing mass marketed and functional ar15s nation wide like the 6.8 and also putting a few bolt guns into the mix obviously the MVP comes to mind but a more traditional hunting rifle with standard 5 rd fixed magazine would probably be even better especially if we could get it in a micro action so we could have a reasonably priced readily available to the masses 6 pound hunting rifle with mild recoil capable of taking game out to 400 yards which is farther than many people will ever even point a gun at a target if you get that gun to market for under 800 with a steady supply and you might get your market boom, not every one wants to hunt with an ar15 or msr or whatever you want to call it even if they can and you think they should...

And even if the Grendel bolt gun comes to market it will need to compete even more with the likes of the 260 and 6.5 creedmore it's not like factory ammo is going to be a deciding factor at that point would you pay $1.50 more for an extra 400 fps compared to the Grendel so all you really have is rifle weight and recoil as a bargaining chip in the whole scheme of things and honestly the weight is not that big a factor the micro action will only shave a few ounces off the build wieght compared to a short action so then there is recoil which still isn't much

But if we could get the availability of the 6.8 ammo I would be thrilled http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&i...hscope=all but I still want Winchester to do a load for the Grendel based on midwayusa list they have not jumped upon the 6.8 bandwagon yet

[JASmith]

I've used a 6.8 quite a bit. The 6.8mm 95gr Barnes TTSX and 100gr Nosler AB are both very effective for hunting applications at "typical" distances, in part, due to velocity. I think the Grendel would be very well served by a (relatively) high-BC 6.5mm 107gr hunting bullet (maybe along the lines of a Nosler ABLR). Perhaps sort of a compromise between velocity and BC for the Grendel.

A 107 gr bonded hunting bullet would also do well for all North American deer.

A 100 grain lead-free expanding bullet takes one into Elk territory.

Hence the bullet weight of choice for going lighter could be influenced by the technology. My rationale for lead-free is that we will likely easily see 2900 ft/sec out of 20-inch barrels at the 85 grain levels. Barnes and Hornady already have that weight in 6mm and they are good for medium game. Pushing down toward 70 grains might let us see 3000+ fps while still keeping the pressure right.

In the end, perception of what works and what doesn't work counts for a lot. There is no question that the 100 - 107 grain bullets will work well, and that weight maps into a lot of expectations about what might be needed for deer. That is why a more aggressive terminal ballistic and field test exercise would be useful if one wanted to promote a 75 - 90 grain lead-free expanding bullet.

[LRRPF52]

I know one thing. The market would eat up a ~100gr loading in a premium hunting bullet. There are powders available now that will easily push a 100gr to 2700fps from an 18" barrel and still be at or under SAAMI MAP.

Hornady even has data indicating this in the 9th Edition. I've gotten just under 2700fps with my 16" with the 100gr NBT with 8208XBR.

Especially for hogs and close-range deer, all you need is about a 100gr bullet. A solid will do better with quartering shots of course, and I think there are enough people who would want that offering.

The best approach would be for the bullet makers to engineer a high BC ~95-105gr solid, as well as bonded bullet, match it with a well-engineered powder, and load the ammunition to existing SAAMI MAP for the Grendel. A 2700fps load would be easy with that approach.

I also see a trend where some hunters are becoming more informed about BC and SD, and aren't just looking at mv's, although I agree that mv is still prominent in many people's minds.

[mongoosesnipe]

Kilimanjaro bell killed a whole heap of elephants with little guns
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

[jluck]

FWIW I use a gun smith here in Oregon that is quite a master in titanium machining. He is working on making Titanium lowers and I briefly talked with him about making bolts. If this is something others have interest in I could ramp up my efforts in getting this done.

[pinzgauer]

Kilimanjaro bell killed a whole heap of elephants with little guns
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

After a shooting a Manlicher stocked 7x57 carbine for a while, I understand the love for the cartridge and Bell's pick.

Maybe Elephants were different back then, but seems to me it would take a big pair to walk up to one and pop it in the ear hole!

[mongoosesnipe]

After a shooting a Manlicher stocked 7x57 carbine for a while, I understand the love for the cartridge and Bell's pick.

Maybe Elephants were different back then, but seems to me it would take a big pair to walk up to one and pop it in the ear hole!

It was back in the beginning of the commercial ivory hinting and he would sit 200 yards back in a blind and shoot them in the head and the elephants were not familiar with the idea of being hunted and did not know gunshots like they do now it was a lot more of a slaughter than a hunting excersise similar to the elimination of the great buffalo herds of the American west

That being said ivory poachers and not going around with $30k double guns and shooting elephants with ammunition which cost $40 a round most of them use surplus Mauser rifles and surplus military fmj ammo

[woohoo]

I know one thing. The market would eat up a ~100gr loading in a premium hunting bullet. There are powders available now that will easily push a 100gr to 2700fps from an 18" barrel and still be at or under SAAMI MAP.

Hornady even has data indicating this in the 9th Edition. I've gotten just under 2700fps with my 16" with the 100gr NBT with 8208XBR.

Especially for hogs and close-range deer, all you need is about a 100gr bullet. A solid will do better with quartering shots of course, and I think there are enough people who would want that offering.

The best approach would be for the bullet makers to engineer a high BC ~95-105gr solid, as well as bonded bullet, match it with a well-engineered powder, and load the ammunition to existing SAAMI MAP for the Grendel. A 2700fps load would be easy with that approach.

I also see a trend where some hunters are becoming more informed about BC and SD, and aren't just looking at mv's, although I agree that mv is still prominent in many people's minds.

I've been saying the 100gr TTSX is the best performing hog bullet since 08. Seems like I got chewed out for saying it. The lighter bullet allows faster burning powders and produces more velocity because of it.

[mongoosesnipe]

I've been saying the 100gr TTSX is the best performing hog bullet since 08. Seems like I got chewed out for saying it. The lighter bullet allows faster burning powders and produces more velocity because of it.

Oh hush nobody wants to here about your real world experience .....if we can't send a 140 gr pill at 2800fps what's the point, I mean as it is the Grendel is only a long distance paper killer anyway....

In case the sarcasm wasn't pick up I am just joking, but yeah the 100 grain barnes is just about perfect for the Grendel

[JASmith]

I've been saying the 100gr TTSX is the best performing hog bullet since 08. Seems like I got chewed out for saying it. The lighter bullet allows faster burning powders and produces more velocity because of it.

Some of us are just slow learners and reluctant to let go of dearly held notions.

'Been there, Done that!'