BjornF16 Wrote:I just measured my Satern supplied bolt (for Spartan barrel) at .136".
It appears you have both a out of spec bolt and short throat.
An earlier email with a Steve Satern attributed quote indicated S. Satern didn't believe the SAAMI spec included throat dimensions...I wonder if Satern or PTG believe they could shorten the throat and still call it SAAMI Grendel?...
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post83844
Allowing non-standard chambers marked "6.5 Grendel" to go to customers has caused a lot of confusion. Continuing to claim that it is perfectly OK to ignore (or tweak) the specification is a bad thing for all concerned.
Send the evidence to where you got the kit. They need to correct it -- standard factory ammo must fit a standard chamber. Err on the cautious side, however, and follow LRRPF52's advice to record the lot number of the ammunition. The locked thread discussion includes the possibility that something slipped through QC on that side, so one needs to do due dilligence.
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I spoke with Deb Satern and she said they have checked their reamer and confirmed it is in spec. She said that anyone having problems with their Liberty barrel should contact Lindsey.
satern.lindsey@gmail.com
712-362-4991
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Already sent. Waiting to hear back.
Lead Chucker
Unregistered
I wonder if they are going to fix the Stoner barrels also? I would just be happy to have the throat reamed/lengthened!
RAM2940 Wrote:45r:
I'm having a issue with a LBC bolt i believe the lugs are to long, Face depth .1345 and a lug length of .284, who made your bolt. I am thinking about trying to polish the backside of the lugs to .280.
I think my bolt was made by maxim since it has the rings on it.
To get the lugs lapped down a few thou I think you might be able to lap with 320 grit for around 50 strokes and follow with 600 grit for around 50 strokes.
I'd measure often to make sure you don't overdue it.
Keep the grit on the back of the lugs and clean it off good when done.
I try to keep the latch pressed so the hook doesn't get worn while stoking the bolt in and out.
My BCG is very smooth after lapping.
I'm not an expert at this stuff so I'm not sure if using 320 grit would be too coarse but I'm pretty sure it would speed up the lapping process and it would take a while to lap off 3 thou with 600 grit.
JASmith Wrote:...Send the evidence to where you got the kit. They need to correct it -- standard factory ammo must fit a standard chamber. Err on the cautious side, however, and follow LRRPF52's advice to record the lot number of the ammunition. The locked thread discussion includes the possibility that something slipped through QC on that side, so one needs to do due dilligence.
On reflection, it seems prudent to also send the evidence to the ammunition maker. This is a good way to rule out, or rule in, out of spec ammunition as the source of your problem.
Yes, both will claim their product is fine, but giving both a chance to research what happened gives you, them, and the community a chance to bring this to closure sooner than later.
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Given Satern's comment regarding SAAMI spec and throats, I think some specific questions and investigations into their PTG reamer are in order...or a clarification of their comment regarding the throat not being covered by SAAMI spec.
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explorecaves
Unregistered
45r Wrote:I think my bolt was made by maxim since it has the rings on it.
To get the lugs lapped down a few thou I think you might be able to lap with 320 grit for around 50 strokes and follow with 600 grit for around 50 strokes.
I'd measure often to make sure you don't overdue it.
Keep the grit on the back of the lugs and clean it off good when done.
I try to keep the latch pressed so the hook doesn't get worn while stoking the bolt in and out.
My BCG is very smooth after lapping.
I'm not an expert at this stuff so I'm not sure if using 320 grit would be too coarse but I'm pretty sure it would speed up the lapping process and it would take a while to lap off 3 thou with 600 grit.
I would send the bolt in rather than try to lap off that much material. You will be removing the layer of material that is heat treated which could lead to lug breakage.
explorecaves Wrote:I would send the bolt in rather than try to lap off that much material. You will be removing the layer of material that is heat treated which could lead to lug breakage.
He's probably right.
Three thou could be too much.
Better to send it in and be safe and not sorry.
My 65 barrel is shooting under an inch at 50 yards with 85 grain sierra HP's even with a fuzzy red dot sight.
It cycles good with 3 oclock ejection.
My barrel works OK so far.
I'd imagine yours will also once they get things worked out.
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02-02-2014, 08:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2014, 08:47 PM by RAM2940.)
I decided to call LBC tomorrow to see if i can exchange this bolt, its never been used, but I purchased it about 6 months ago. Just got my lilja barrel and it would not pass the go gauge, bolt would not turn and would not turn on a 123 Amax round. If they will not take it back for exchange, i will have to wait till the bolt i ordered from precesion firearms arrives and check and test it. With the lugs measuring .284 it throws the calculations out of spec. I read in a previious thread, Lug length minus bolt face depth should be .143-.146.
RAM2940 Wrote:I decided to call LBC tomorrow to see if i can exchange this bolt, its never been used, but I purchased it about 6 months ago. Just got my lilja barrel and it would not pass the go gauge, bolt would not turn and would not turn on a 123 Amax round. If they will not take it back for exchange, i will have to wait till the bolt i ordered from precesion firearms arrives and check and test it. With the lugs measuring .284 it throws the calculations out of spec. I read in a previious thread, Lug length minus bolt face depth should be .143-.146.
LBC will probably take it back.
I wouldn't want to take a chance with a custom lilja barrel.
The maxim bolt works good in my upper.
Woohoo is a bolt manufacturer and makes the super bolts.
The specs he quoted are right.
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02-03-2014, 11:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2014, 12:42 AM by SHORT-N-SASSY.)
I today sent the following E-mail to MidwayUSA.com Founder & CEO, Larry Potterfield:
"Subject: AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel (MidwayUSA Product #: 884877)
"Dear Mr. Potterfield,
"I ordered the above-referenced item on December 24, 2013 and received it on January 3, 2014. During my initial shooting test, a few days later, using Hornady factory-loaded 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX ammunition (Lot #3132540, ordered from MidwayUSA), I took note of cratered primer pockets: a known indicator of high chamber pressure.
"I later checked the cartridge overall length (COL) of the Hornady 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX ammunition: 2.245". Using the spring-loaded Bolt-Carrier Group, I loaded cartridges into the chamber. I then extracted the unfired cartridges, by pulling on the Charging Handle, noting some resistance in the process of extraction. I examined the cartridges and found distinct abrasions on the bullets, approx. 0 075" - 0.080" forward of the case neck mouths, at 5 points around the circumference (the barrel is stamped, "6.5 GRENDEL 1-8 5R").
"Given the significantly increased head diameter of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge (over the .223/5.56x45mm cartridge), the use, of which, in the AR-15 action requires due diligence in maintaining safe operating pressures http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar...thrust-faq, I'm concerned. Indeed, my experience parallels that of others. For example, following his 6.5 Grendel build, using the same barrel supplier http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...6.5G/page2 (See Reply #14, pics showing abrasions caused by the factory-loaded Hornady 123-grain SST bullets being jammed into the rifling lands, upon normal loading of the cartridges).
"In view of the above, I think it would be prudent for the barrel supplier to issue a recall of the short-throated 6.5 Grendel-chambered barrels. Fact: If the COL does not allow the bullet some initial free-bore, pressure spikes is the result, causing stress on the Bolt; Broken Bolt lugs are not an uncommon result, when handloading the 6.5 Grendel in the AR-15, with loads that exceed recommended maximum pressure levels.
"What to do? After agonizing over the dilemma, for some weeks, I've decided that I don't want to continue this game of Russian roulette. A broken Bolt lug, or worse, is not what a responsible shooter should have to contend with --- using factory-loaded ammunition, in a 6.5 Grendel SAAMI-chambered rifle! Accordingly, I've downloaded and printed-out the MidwayUSA Return Merchandise Form, followed the written instructions, therein, filled-out the Form --- checking "Refund" --- painstakingly repacked the Barrel and Bolt in the original triangular shipping carton and, using the MidwayUSA "ATTENTION: CUSTOMER RETURNS" shipping label, today returned the MidwayUSA Product #: 884877.
"Thank you for sharing this matter of concern.
"Sincerely,"
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SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:I today sent the following E-mail to MidwayUSA.com Founder & CEO, Larry Potterfield:
"Subject: AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel (MidwayUSA Product #: 884877)
"Dear Mr. Potterfield,
"I ordered the above-referenced item on December 24, 2013 and received it on January 3, 2014. During my initial shooting test, a few days later, using Hornady factory-loaded 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX ammunition (Lot #3132540, ordered from MidwayUSA), I took note of cratered primer pockets: a known indicator of high chamber pressure.
"I later checked the cartridge overall length (COL) of the Hornady 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX ammunition: 2.245". Using the spring-loaded Bolt-Carrier Group, I loaded cartridges into the chamber. I then extracted the unfired cartridges, by pulling on the Charging Handle, noting some resistance in the process of extraction. I examined the cartridges and found distinct abrasions on the bullets, approx. 0 075" - 0.080" forward of the case neck mouths, at 5 points around the circumference (the barrel is stamped, "6.5 GRENDEL 1-8 5R").
"Given the significantly increased head diameter of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge (over the .223/5.56x45mm cartridge), the use, of which, in the AR-15 action requires due diligence in maintaining safe operating pressures http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar...thrust-faq, I'm concerned. Indeed, my experience parallels that of others. For example, following his 6.5 Grendel build, using the same barrel supplier http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...6.5G/page2 (See Reply #14, pics showing abrasions caused by the factory-loaded Hornady 123-grain SST bullets being jammed into the rifling lands, upon normal loading of the cartridges).
"In view of the above, I think it would be prudent for the barrel supplier to issue a recall of the short-throated 6.5 Grendel-chambered barrels. Fact: If the COL does not allow the bullet some initial free-bore, pressure spikes is the result, causing stress on the Bolt; Broken Bolt lugs are not an uncommon result, when handloading the 6.5 Grendel in the AR-15, with loads that exceed recommended maximum pressure levels.
"What to do? After agonizing over the dilemma, for some weeks, I've decided that I don't want to continue this game of Russian roulette. A broken Bolt lug, or worse, is not what a responsible shooter should have to contend with --- using factory-loaded ammunition, in a 6.5 Grendel SAAMI-chambered rifle! Accordingly, I've downloaded and printed-out the MidwayUSA Return Merchandise Form, followed the written instructions, therein, filled-out the Form --- checking "Refund" --- painstakingly repacked the Barrel and Bolt in the original triangular shipping carton and, using the MidwayUSA "ATTENTION: CUSTOMER RETURNS" shipping label, today returned the MidwayUSA Product #: 884877.
"Thank you for sharing this matter of concern.
"Sincerely,"
Very well written. Let us know what he replies with.
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To update:
Moments ago, I noted the following:
1, MidwayUSA.com, beginning today, is offering a "Clearance" sale on their AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel, Product #: 884877, "$274.96, Save $25.03 (8%)";
2, A check of the saternmachining.com Home Page still shows no mention of the problems re their short-throated 6.5 Grendel Barrels, aired on the 6.5 Grendel Forum;
3, A check of the UPS Tracking Number of my February 3, 2014 Return Shipment to MidwayUSA states, "Last Location, Columbia, MO, On Vehicle for Delivery Today."
SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:To update:
Moments ago, I noted the following:
1, MidwayUSA.com, beginning today, is offering a "Clearance" sale on their AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel, Product #: 884877, "$274.96, Save $25.03 (8%)";
2, A check of the saternmachining.com Home Page still shows no mention of the problems re their short-throated 6.5 Grendel Barrels, aired on the 6.5 Grendel Forum;
3, A check of the UPS Tracking Number of my February 3, 2014 Return Shipment to MidwayUSA states, "Last Location, Columbia, MO, On Vehicle for Delivery Today."
Sounds like Midway, instead of holding the barrels, fixing them and then sell they put them on sale hoping no one will notice the problem.
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woohoo Wrote:Sounds like Midway, instead of holding the barrels, fixing them and then sell they put them on sale hoping no one will notice the problem.
In light of SNS's letter to Mr. Potterfield, it would seem so. I hate believing that MidwayUSA would make an informed decision like this.
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It seems only the 16" barrel is on clearance while the 18" is still regular price.
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I have emailed back and forth with Satern. I have also contacted Hornady. My kit is on its way back. Lets see what they say.
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To update:
Just got off the phone with MidwayUSA.com Customer Service. They received my return shipment of AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel, this morning. And, they now are processing a Refund for the amount paid, plus shipping. I thanked the Customer Service Rep for a satisfactory conclusion to a bittersweet experience;
No response to my February 3, 2014 E-mail to Larry Potterfield, to date;
Re AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium Contour 1 in 8" Twist 18" Stainless Steel http://www.midwayusa.com/product/586354/...less-steel, scroll down to the three latest Customer Reviews, dated 1/20/2014, 1/20/2014 and 1/15/2014, respectively, "Out of spec chamber," "Short chamber," "Not consistent (bullet gets stuck in chamber)." Botton Line, all three, "No, I would not recommend this to a friend."
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do you really think that Larry Potterfield is gonna care about all this? really? like he is gonna look into what a a 6.5 grendel is and research the caliber and the barrel makers and what midway carrys and see this event and make a personal judgement? really? at best this is handed off to subordinates if at all and only after enough returns come in,,,,,,,really
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