ATF thread

[LRRPF52]

I just saw an account where a guy called up FTB and spoke with one of the examiners, who actually happened to be a gun guy, and he said the exact opposite of what is posted above about M16 parts in an AR15, particularly with regard to hammers, selectors, and triggers.

The same debate has been gone back and forth over concerning the bolt carrier. Those who are slavish to the ATF and its extra-constitutional violations have claimed that you can't have an original AR15 carrier in an AR15, because it's one of the components that makes a select-fire gun capable of timing the automatic mode. The problem is, the gun was never meant to operate with a neutered, or lower weight carrier.

The particular firearms examiner in question also stated that it doesn't matter how many M16 parts you stuff into a semi-automatic AR15, because it isn't going to go AUTO unless you have a machined lower receiver to take the AUTO sear. We know that, and he knows that, but he obviously isn't aware of the BS "rulings" that ATF has codified in their little gestapo world.

[Buster]

I just saw an account where a guy called up FTB and spoke with one of the examiners, who actually happened to be a gun guy, and he said the exact opposite of what is posted above about M16 parts in an AR15, particularly with regard to hammers, selectors, and triggers.

The same debate has been gone back and forth over concerning the bolt carrier. Those who are slavish to the ATF and its extra-constitutional violations have claimed that you can't have an original AR15 carrier in an AR15, because it's one of the components that makes a select-fire gun capable of timing the automatic mode. The problem is, the gun was never meant to operate with a neutered, or lower weight carrier.

The particular firearms examiner in question also stated that it doesn't matter how many M16 parts you stuff into a semi-automatic AR15, because it isn't going to go AUTO unless you have a machined lower receiver to take the AUTO sear. We know that, and he knows that, but he obviously isn't aware of the BS "rulings" that ATF has codified in their little gestapo world.

It would be nice to have the examiners be required to KNOW EXACTLY how a select-fire firearm functions (the mechanics, physics, etc.) before dropping the hammer (no pun intended) on law abiding citizens..

[LRRPF52]

It doesn't matter how competent or of moral character the agents are who interact with law-abiding citizens. The ATF has a culture of corruption in the mid and senior management levels, where political appointees who have an anti-2A ideology are promoted, rewarded, and are totally immune to prosecution for even high crimes of treason.

For example, the guys who were involved with Fast & Furious were able to retire, and while transitioning from ATF to retirement, one of them secured a job with Visa Card Services as the manager for all of ATF's government Visa card accounts, while still on the government payroll. One ATF ASAIC, George Gillett, even personally advertised online and sold his FN FiveSeven handgun to a straw-purchaser for the cartels, and it was recovered at the murder scene of a famous beauty queen in Mexico on November 23, 2012. No consequences for him at the end of the day, and when asked about it, he simply shrugged it off citing a normal online sale.

Gillett purchased the weapon at Legendary Arms, a Phoenix gun store. On the federal form 4473 used to buy the gun, Gillett used the ATF office address, 201 East Washington, and said "Apt 940." On subsequent purchase, Gillett used a commercial address, that of a strip mall.

Both actions are illegal, since ATF regulations require buyers use their residential address.

"Lying on form 4473 is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines," Sen. Charles Grassley said in a letter Wednesday to Michael Horowitz in the Office of Inspector General. "I request that you initiate an investigation into these matters and that you specifically examine whether Mr. Gillett was the purchaser as indicated by these documents, why the forms list multiple, inaccurate residential addresses while purchasing the weapons, and how the weapon purchased on January 7, 2010 ended up in Mexico."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/...uty-queen/



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pistol-purch...in-mexico/

CBS News spoke to Gillett, who is still employed at ATF. Gillett acknowledged he once owned the weapon in question, but says he sold it in Phoenix sometime last year after advertising it on the Internet. He declined to provide the name of the man who bought it, but says he went "above and beyond" what was required by law to complete the firearms transaction. That included asking the purchaser to fill out a form giving personal information and stating that he was in the U.S. legally; and checking his driver's license, which Gillett said was issued in the U.S.

"I didn't do anything criminal," said Gillett, who calls himself a gun enthusiast. "I've been a gun collector all my life."

He told CBS News that he ran into financial difficulties in recent years and sold some of his firearms. Gillett says the Herstal pistol may have sold for approximately $1,100.

In a related development, as CBS News reported yesterday, another weapon recovered in the same area after the shootout in which the beauty queen was killed, had been trafficked by Fast and Furious suspect Uriel Patino.

[BjornF16]

I just saw an account where a guy called up FTB and spoke with one of the examiners, who actually happened to be a gun guy, and he said the exact opposite of what is posted above about M16 parts in an AR15, particularly with regard to hammers, selectors, and triggers.

The same debate has been gone back and forth over concerning the bolt carrier. Those who are slavish to the ATF and its extra-constitutional violations have claimed that you can't have an original AR15 carrier in an AR15, because it's one of the components that makes a select-fire gun capable of timing the automatic mode. The problem is, the gun was never meant to operate with a neutered, or lower weight carrier.

The particular firearms examiner in question also stated that it doesn't matter how many M16 parts you stuff into a semi-automatic AR15, because it isn't going to go AUTO unless you have a machined lower receiver to take the AUTO sear. We know that, and he knows that, but he obviously isn't aware of the BS "rulings" that ATF has codified in their little gestapo world.

The ATF ruling I cited was from 1981 (ATF Ruling 81-4). Perhaps there is another ruling since then...

...well, not a ruling, but a letter that clarified that it is perfectly legal to use M16 carrier in AR-15:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/arch...Letter.pdf

[LRRPF52]

In my mind, it makes zero sense to call or request letters from ATF on anything, since they are literally an organization tasked with infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms after Johnson's 1968 Gun Control Act.

By recognizing them as a legitimate organization, it confuses them, and makes them actually think that they are worthy of oxygen and our tax dollars.

How much treason and murder do we have to put up with before someone in Congress grows a pair and eliminates them? Oh wait, they work hand-in-hand with DOJ, who has informants woven throughout the Circuit Courts and Congressional Staff, so as long as Congress is of the character they are, they are too easy to blackmail, even for keystone cops like the DOJ employs.

I think the ATF needs to be dealt with at the State level, where the State legislatures demand that the Governor banish them entirely, but then you run into Federal LE money that has basically addicted local agencies to the D.C. syringe, making effective enforcement predicated on money from D.C. that Counties and cities could never generate, no matter how many traffic stops they pull.

Anytime they gather a multi-agency drug or high-risk warrant task force, there is often 65%-90% funding from the Feds, and the locals are very excited to be able to kick in doors with "the big dogs", so you'll never get local support to send the ATF packing from your state. Most local LE haven't the slightest clue about the big picture, and it's easy to lump anyone critical of ATF into the "cook" and "nutjob gun guy" categories, before they head off on the next high risk warrant for what are genuinely legitimate criminal targets most of the time. Mention ATF's henous crimes, and their eyes glass over, after years of shift work and no time to stay informed outside of their demanding schedule.

Try bringing the subject up with your legislators, and you are the "gun guy" again, in the margins of their concern.

[bwaites]

Exactly the same as asking a question of the IRS!

[BjornF16]

In my mind, it makes zero sense to call or request letters from ATF on anything, since they are literally an organization tasked with infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms after Johnson's 1968 Gun Control Act.

By recognizing them as a legitimate organization, it confuses them, and makes them actually think that they are worthy of oxygen and our tax dollars.

Unfortunately, they have to be reckoned with. I suppose if you steer clear of any/all licensing and/or business ventures under their purview, you can stay below their radar.

Try ignoring the IRS...

[LRRPF52]

Unfortunately, they have to be reckoned with. I suppose if you steer clear of any/all licensing and/or business ventures under their purview, you can stay below their radar.

Try ignoring the IRS...

That's the point. As long as you don't own any firearms, you have nothing to worry about, comrade. With the IRS, as long as you don't make any money, you have nothing to worry about, comrade. EPA? As long as you don't run a business, especially in the energy or manufacturing sectors, you have nothing to worry about.

Remember the poor soul that let his "friend" borrow his competition service rifle and go to a public range? It had a tuned match trigger in it, like all service rifles do. Well, of course the thing just happened to double on him at the range in front of some no-brain LEO's who felt it was important to stick their noses into the matter, and the "friend" just deferred to the owner, who was prosecuted for manufacturing a machinegun.

[Walter]

Not all goverment is bad. The EPA does save lives. Is clean air bad? How about clean water? There should be a balance. Not sure how many people need machine guns. I am sure that you all know someone who should not own a 50 BMG. I am sure that there is some good in the ATF. That said ATF could use some help.

[montana]

We went down this road on the room 2A forum board and it got shut down. Yes there is good and bad government like there are good and bad people. If a person took the powers that were given to the Federal government in the constitution and stopped there we would have a different looking country than we do today. The debate, arguments, and sometimes hard feelings occur when people have different opinions on this subject. I will leave it at that. Everyone have a Happy New YEAR.

[BjornF16]

I'm all for repeal of NFA of 1934, GCA or 1968, FOPA of 1986...what did I miss?

The real culprit in all this is Congress.

[LRRPF52]

Not all goverment is bad. The EPA does save lives. Is clean air bad? How about clean water? There should be a balance. Not sure how many people need machine guns. I am sure that you all know someone who should not own a 50 BMG. I am sure that there is some good in the ATF. That said ATF could use some help.

The EPA doesn't help keep the air clean, they act as a clearing house for entrenched businesses with enough lobbying power through K street in D.C., while small businesses get hosed. America has the cleanest air on the planet for any land areas with similar land mass and population density, because we have Pacific weather patterns and 3 major mountain ranges, with the most elaborate river and tributary network in the world. Since we have so much hydro-electric and natural gas power, we don't need to burn anywhere near the amount of coal that flatter areas do that have limited or no mountain ranges, like Europe, China, and Russia. EPA has nothing to do with air quality, and everything to do with acting as a front for targeting certain businesses for political reasons. Look no further than the legal disparity between how battery manufacturers are treated compared to ammunition. The EPA basically regulated lead-manufacturing out of the US this year.

The EPA and OSHA are business-destroying organizations, not there for their stated purposes, and at the end of the day, they are government-run, with no accountability, and increasing budgets for a negative return on the people who have to find a place to work to pay for the abuse.

How did our ancestors survive all those years with free access to machineguns, and a workplace with no OSHA and EPA? I'd rather live in a country where we err on the side of freedom, than places like where my mom is from, where the government can't find enough ways to insert itself into your life, let alone the obscene micromanagement of businesses.

For example, if every member here owned a machinegun, what would it change? I personally don't have a burning desire to own them, other than for collection purposes and the occasional holiday blast session, because they are expensive to feed, and are pretty much pointless from a mag-fed weapon. Since I don't have any ill intent to my fellow men, me owning a machinegun wouldn't change anything in the world. Now I really would like to have an 81mm mortar tube, with unrestricted access to HE rounds, as long as I stored them in a well-regulated bunker. Mortars are way more fun that long-range rifles, I don't care who you are!

I know plenty of people with .50 BMG rifles, and it hasn't changed a thing in the world. The only people that shouldn't have .50 BMG's that do have them, got them from ATF and the US State Department through WH-approved operations. That's the problem. Low-rate thugs in the US wouldn't know the first thing about being able to effectively employ a .50 BMG, whereas the military weapons that have been provided to military narco-terrorist gangs south of our border have also been accompanied by formal military training in the School of Americas, and teams of military units under State Department orders to provide training support for the Mexican Airborne El GAFE, which is where Los Zetas originated from.

Still think ATF just needs a little tinkering to help them out? We need more ICE and US Border Patrol agents, not internal gun gestapo who are funneling thousands of weapons to murderous narco paramilitary gangs.

Did you catch the part where I mentioned that 1362 ATF agents have active Federal Equal Opportunity Act violation complaints as of 2012? There are only 4770 ATF employees. They're a train wreck of an organization, regardless of how many good field agents there are. That means that 29% of ATF employees in 2012 had an active EEO discrimination complaint based on gender, race, skin color, creed, etc. http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-whis...complaints

Comparative figures for the FBI and DEA are less than 1%, and those organizations are tore up from the floor up with regards to management. For example, the DEA admitted last year that they were helping cartels launder drug money, to gain credibility with them. So we have ATF funneling thousands of guns to the cartels, DEA laundering cartel drug money http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=777_1323264375, while the Bureau hides in the shadows with their hands deep in both areas of scandal through US Attorneys' offices and OCDETF's in the various Federal regions.

This isn't government, this is organized crime that has taken over our government.

[Walter]

I work for a class 8 truck manufacture and know the regulation well. When I started working on trucks they would put out black smoke. I know the math, there was 1000s of tons of particulates being made. Now they are clean. It took time and money to get better air quality. In that time fuel economy went up. The regulation for class 8 trucks in the US is the cleanest in the world. That is why we have clean air. The coal plants here can produce much less polution that the ones in China. EPA again. Green house gas regulation is coming. I guess you do no believe that we are changing the temperature of the world. It is a big conspiracy to kill business?

I bring up 50s because I know someone who has one. They do not get that it will travel as far as it does with as much energy. Here on the east coast not many places to shoot a mile. There should be some kind of class that people have to pass before they get one. In drag racing you have to get a license to 150 MPH. That is because you can hurt yourself and others. The same could be true for 50s.

Again not all goverment is bad. ATF could use some help. They could also add some staff to the department that approves the tax stamps. They have like 8 poeple there.

[bwaites]

I work for a class 8 truck manufacture and know the regulation well. When I started working on trucks they would put out black smoke. I know the math, there was 1000s of tons of particulates being made. Now they are clean. It took time and money to get better air quality. In that time fuel economy went up. The regulation for class 8 trucks in the US is the cleanest in the world. That is why we have clean air. The coal plants here can produce much less polution that the ones in China. EPA again. Green house gas regulation is coming. I guess you do no believe that we are changing the temperature of the world. It is a big conspiracy to kill business?

I bring up 50s because I know someone who has one. They do not get that it will travel as far as it does with as much energy. Here on the east coast not many places to shoot a mile. There should be some kind of class that people have to pass before they get one. In drag racing you have to get a license to 150 MPH. That is because you can hurt yourself and others. The same could be true for 50s.

Again not all goverment is bad. ATF could use some help. They could also add some staff to the department that approves the tax stamps. They have like 8 poeple there.

Walter, you actually believe the EPA is what created that situation? Really?

And you obviously do not actually believe in the Second Amendment if you think .50's should require a license. How about .338 Lapua Magnums? Longest sniper shirt ever was one of those. How about 7mm Magnums? Or .308, or 5.56. All of them are fatal way out past 1000 yards!

Unlike drag racing, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a specific, enumerated right.

Guess we have to start figuring out how to license people who post on blogs!

[LRRPF52]

I'm all about clean air, but as long as certain business with the largest emissions are allowed to buy exceptions from the rules from EPA, while other businesses are held to the "standard", I wouldn't be citing the EPA as a stalwart for the environment. They are another corrupt, politically-connected organization in D.C. that has very little effect on the environment at all. They should be shut down in my opinion, and replaced with regional pacts between the States with the Governors and a rotating accountability body, so businesses can't easily fix and bribe Congress in the District of Corruption.

Back to the ATF. They are a negative return on our forced tax investment. No matter how many guns they might have kept out of criminals hands, they still intentionally funneled thousands of them to murderous narco-cartels, and they have had a culture of abominable management for decades, to the point that ATF field agents are 29 times more likely to file an Equal Opportunity Complaint against their peers and supervisors than even the Bureau and DEA. That's not counting office of professional conduct or waste fraud & abuse complaints.

We need to abolish the entire FFL system, and leave it to a free market. You want to buy a gun from me, meet my store's standards, and we will allow you as a customer. None of the FFL's wanted to sell any of the weapons to the cartel straw purchasers, and immediately called their ATF contacts to report the attempted straw buys. The ATF coerced them to make the sales anyway, assuring them that it was helping their investigation. ATF agents in the Phoenix Office immediately complained once they learned they were being tasked with documenting these diabolical schemes, and were told:

"If you want to make an omelet, you have to crack a few eggs." This was when they confronted their supervisors with the reality that it was only a matter of time before one of these guns shows up at a murder scene in the US, especially at the murder of a fellow LEO...

These are but two of the untold thousands of deaths from Fast & Furious weapons that ATF whistle-blowers were trying to stop their own organization from providing to the cartels:

Brian Terry, killed by an FBI informant who used an ATF-supplied WASR-10 7.62x39 rifle to shoot through his spine.






ICE Agent Jaime Zapata, killed by Cartels armed with ATF-supplied F&F weapons in Mexico, while he was unarmed by Mexican Law.

[cory]

I work for a class 8 truck manufacture and know the regulation well. When I started working on trucks they would put out black smoke. I know the math, there was 1000s of tons of particulates being made. Now they are clean. It took time and money to get better air quality. In that time fuel economy went up. The regulation for class 8 trucks in the US is the cleanest in the world. That is why we have clean air. The coal plants here can produce much less polution that the ones in China. EPA again. Green house gas regulation is coming. I guess you do no believe that we are changing the temperature of the world. It is a big conspiracy to kill business?

I bring up 50s because I know someone who has one. They do not get that it will travel as far as it does with as much energy. Here on the east coast not many places to shoot a mile. There should be some kind of class that people have to pass before they get one. In drag racing you have to get a license to 150 MPH. That is because you can hurt yourself and others. The same could be true for 50s.

Again not all goverment is bad. ATF could use some help. They could also add some staff to the department that approves the tax stamps. They have like 8 poeple there.

If you work on trucks then you know the damage ethanol does. Overtime it causes vehicles to be much less efficient resulting in burning more evil fossil fuels. Thank you government (EPA).

Global warming? I heard it said once that 80% of scientist agree with climate change caused by humans, of those scientists the 80% are made up of meteorologist and climatologist the other 20% are physicists and chemists.

There's a reason for this because the physics of this phenomenon don't add up.Our activities compared to the temperature changes of the Sun are the equivalent of an ant climbing on your finger and changing your body weight.

There are laws in the books that don't regulate guns that'll take care of the guy you know. If he incidentally shoots someone with that 50 his guilty of homicide and should be treated as man slaughter whether he knows the capabilities of his weapon or not.

It's the nature of government to accumulate power and must be put in check by the people from time to time. Furthermore Power corrupts even the best of men, therefore any group with to much power should be viewed as evil, as that outcome is inevitable.

[Walter]

Ouch. All I said is not every thing the goverment does is bad. Yes the US has the highest standards in the world for truck emissions. That is the area I know. The EPA rules give us clean air and water.

Every one in this country has the the right to keep and bear arms, except it they have mental problems or a criminal. I also think there is a class of arms that should require a license to own. The license should be a right own, but have to pass a test. The FFL system we have works ok in most cases. I think that as far private party sales there should be a quick way to make sure that the person I am selling my gun to is not going to go Sandy Hook. I would fell bad if I sold a gun to someone and they did that. The free market will not police its self the way it should. Look at the last 6 years. If mortgage requirements would have been better it would not have happened. Alot of people lost there job and savings. There sould be rules that keep people from being to stupid.

Ethanol is clean buring, but it will eat some hoses. It will not kill fuel economy. It does have less energy than gas so you have to burn more.

I do think that any one that had any thing to do with fast and furious should go to jail. FBI needs to spend some time there. It is hard to get DOJ to bring charges.

Global warming is on the way. Look at the big weather to see it. The tornados we have had this year is the start.

[NugginFutz]

Ethanol is clean buring, but it will eat some hoses. It will not kill fuel economy. It does have less energy than gas so you have to burn more.

Burning more fuel is the very definition of lesser fuel economy.

I do think that any one that had any thing to do with fast and furious should go to jail. FBI needs to speand some time there. It is hard to get DOJ to bring charges.

This one throws me - Fast an Furious was a clear violation of laws on so many levels, which has culminated in at least three deaths I am aware of. Just how bad does it need to get, before you think anyone needs to go to jail?

Global warming is on the way. Look at the big weather to see it. The tornados we have had this year is the start.

2013 was the 2nd quietest year of tornados since 1990, and was part of a 2 year, below average, stretch.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/20...n/3477209/

What are you referring to?

[BjornF16]

^^^ +1 ^^^


Global warming is nothing more than a hoax meant to control peoples' behavior. Models to predict temperatures don't adequately account for solar cycles, CO2 sinks in the oceans, volcanic activity on sea floors that partially drive el nino, la nina cycles, etc. In short, they don't know what they think they know.

Danish scientists recently discovered previous global temperatures were much warmer than previously thought, and ice/snow was less impacted than previously thought. Undermines the current climate change alarmist propaganda.

Just ask the stupid alarmists stuck in the ice in Antarctica...LOL

[cory]

Ouch. All I said is not every thing the goverment does is bad. Yes the US has the highest standards in the world for truck emissions. That is the area I know. The EPA rules give us clean air and water.

Every one in this country has the the right to keep and bear arms, except it they have mental problems or a criminal. I also think there is a class of arms that should require a license to own. The license should be a right own, but have to pass a test. The FFL system we have works ok in most cases. I think that as far private party sales there should be a quick way to make sure that the person I am selling my gun to is not going to go Sandy Hook. I would fell bad if I sold a gun to someone and they did that. The free market will not police its self the way it should. Look at the last 6 years. If mortgage requirements would have been better it would not have happened. Alot of people lost there job and savings. There sould be rules that keep people from being to stupid.

Ethanol is clean buring, but it will eat some hoses. It will not kill fuel economy. It does have less energy than gas so you have to burn more.

I do think that any one that had any thing to do with fast and furious should go to jail. FBI needs to spend some time there. It is hard to get DOJ to bring charges.

Global warming is on the way. Look at the big weather to see it. The tornados we have had this year is the start.

Oh where do I start? Tests? Like the ones that were used to prevent certain people from voting?

Those with mental problems shouldn't be able to own? Talk about an inexact science. Who decides who has sufficient mental problems? There are those would would deem any Combat Veteran to mentally damaged to own a firearm.

Criminals, who exactly do you consider to fall into this category? You'd be shocked at what childish mistakes will result in you not being able to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

Ethanol is clean burning??? Why don't you come take a look at the damage it has done to the LS1 in my '02 Trans Am.

I do agree with with arresting those responsible for F&F. the problem is that the DOJ is responsible.

The recent Tornadoes aren't even the worse in the last 100 years. Idk if you realize it or not, but the polar ice caps have expanded in the recent past. According to climate change and Al Gore they should be completely melted by now.

The Earth and the Sun go through cycles. We live for only a short time and understand cycles in months and years, when the cycles of the Earth and Sun have to be looked at in decades and centuries to even begin to comprehend them.