I've been reading through The Black Rifle Volume I again, and I find the cartridge development fascinating, especially how one of the engineers concluded that the .223 Remington was pushing pressures way too high to achieve the advertised 3300fps MV. He also suggested that they look at the .25 Remington case for the AR15, but it would likely have killed the AR15 in its infancy, which was the goal of most of the engineers and managers in Army Ordnance Department.
They really hated MacNamara's "Whiz Kids" ordering them around in an unprecedented take-over of US Military Small Arms development, testing, evaluation, and fielding. If you haven't read the detailed history of the AR15, I can't recommend it enough. It's absolutely a page-turner.
One of the other conclusions of this engineer with Army Ordnance was that if they has stuck with the original 62gr or 68gr projectiles with a more pointed ogive and longer boat tail, they wouldn't need to use the 55gr bullet at such high velocity to perforate the steel helmet at 500yds, as the higher BC pill would have retained energy better for that task, while being launched at a lower velocity and pressure.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:They really hated MacNamara's "Whiz Kids" ordering them around in an unprecedented take-over of US Military Small Arms development, testing, evaluation, and fielding. If you haven't read the detailed history of the AR15, I can't recommend it enough. It's absolutely a page-turner.
The entire Vietnam war was run by Washington "Whiz kids". Why should the rifle used for that war be any different :-)
pds
pds Wrote:The entire Vietnam war was run by Washington "Whiz kids". Why should the rifle used for that war be any different :-)
pds
The irony of it is that the AR15 is a great design, no matter how much Army Ordnance wanted and tried to kill it. The Whiz Kids latched onto it, and shoved it down the Army's throat, while those who tested it were impressed immediately. The old guard of Army Ordnance engineers weren't really consulted and were told what to do on many issues, rather than being recognized for the vast skill sets that they had.
The story of the forward assist is particularly funny. Gene Stoner and the Air Force said it was useless, and the Army had been so used to being pushed around like a bullied child, they found a hill to die on, and that hill was the forward assist assembly.
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Back when the History channel had history on it and not soap operas about pawn shops, and lumberjacks and whatnot...they had a History of the Gun on the M-16 that was particularly entertaining which heavily featured Eugene Stoner interviews cut into it. It was nice to get some of the story directly.
What do you know...I found it. Enjoy..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKBNcq6oAzE
Tony Williams
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LRRPF52 Wrote:The Whiz Kids latched onto it, and shoved it down the Army's throat, while those who tested it were impressed immediately.
Well, it looked futuristic, was compact and lightweight, with light recoil making it relatively easy to control in auto fire - all things that the M14 was not.
However, I wonder if that testing included firing at longer ranges in cross-winds?
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10-09-2013, 02:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2013, 02:45 PM by pds.)
LRRPF52 Wrote:I've been reading through The Black Rifle Volume I again, and I find the cartridge development fascinating, especially how one of the engineers concluded that the .223 Remington was pushing pressures way too high to achieve the advertised 3300fps MV. He also suggested that they look at the .25 Remington case for the AR15, but it would likely have killed the AR15 in its infancy, which was the goal of most of the engineers and managers in Army Ordnance Department.
They really hated MacNamara's "Whiz Kids" ordering them around in an unprecedented take-over of US Military Small Arms development, testing, evaluation, and fielding. If you haven't read the detailed history of the AR15, I can't recommend it enough. It's absolutely a page-turner.
LRRPF52,
Have you seen this web site? http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html The blue panel on the right side of the screen provides links to read the complete history of the 5.56x45mm round. It is also a very interesting read.
pds
If anyone is interested in the development of the AR (as well as the AK and machine guns in general), the book "The Gun" ny CJ Chivers is an excellent read.
Quote:Well, it looked futuristic, was compact and lightweight, with light recoil making it relatively easy to control in auto fire - all things that the M14 was not.
However, I wonder if that testing included firing at longer ranges in cross-winds?
There was a lot of testing shooting at farther distances, where the 1/14" twist was found lacking in ability to stabilize projectiles, especially in cold weather, and the Air Force identified this pretty early. The funny thing is, the Whiz Kids piped in and said that Eugene Stoner's genius was responsible for the edge of stability design of the 1/14" rifling with 55gr FMJBT, and that anyone in the service trying to change it wasn't worthy of even worshiping in the shadow of his brilliance.
The only problem was, Stoner never specifically selected 1/14" rifling. 1/14" rifling was the common .222 Remington varmint twist for rifles chambered in that cartridge, and it carried over when they cut the .222 Remington chambers on the original prototype guns, as Colt just picked up the ball and ran with it on the Colt Model 601, which was a very good design actually.
The Air Force said the beyond 200yd accuracy of the AR15 was unacceptable to them, and the Alaska trials that the Army conducted also showed the same thing. You also had another series of trials in combat going on that ARPA sponsored, placing them in the hands of South Vietnamese units who were in-contact with VC infiltrators, and this is where the famous wound ballistics results were recorded, astonishing all who witnessed them. The case of the fleeing VC who was shot in the rear of his foot after watching his buddies' chests explode, spewing pink frothy blood from their mouths is of note. It split his leg open all the way up his calf and thigh, killing him.
The Whiz Kids incorrectly attributed the success of the SCHV concept to Stoner, even though Stoner didn't like the idea of a .224 caliber military rifle. He was a .30 cal kinda guy through-and-through, but the SCHV concept had been brewing with a small faction of Army Ordnance workers dating back to before The Great War, who were seen as theoretical, way outside the box thinkers with no real practical merit to their findings. After the AR10 was dropped from the Service Rifle trials, one of the Generals involved asked ArmaLite to make a rifle in the SCHV format, as well as Springfield Armory.
These rifles were evaluated for the SCHV concept, and the ArmaLite AR15 submission was better. ArmaLite's owners, Fairchild, began to see ArmaLite as a liability to the company after the AR10, but their brokerage and marketing firm for the AR10 felt the AR10 was a gem, and took them on a world tour of demos. They also set-up the deal with Colt for the licensing once Fairchild decided not to pursue it anymore.
pds Wrote:LRRPF52,
Have you seen this web site? http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html The blue panel on the right side of the screen provides links to read the complete history of the 5.56x45mm round. It is also a very interesting read.
pds
I'm very familiar with that site, and have referenced it over the years. That and The Black Rifle are great sources to peruse together. I've referenced the 5.56 Timeline many times in the Military Thread here.
Tony Williams
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LRRPF52 Wrote:You also had another series of trials in combat going on that ARPA sponsored, placing them in the hands of South Vietnamese units who were in-contact with VC infiltrators, and this is where the famous wound ballistics results were recorded, astonishing all who witnessed them. The case of the fleeing VC who was shot in the rear of his foot after watching his buddies' chests explode, spewing pink frothy blood from their mouths is of note. It split his leg open all the way up his calf and thigh, killing him.
I recall reading that attempts to replicate this sort of lethality under laboratory conditions back in the USA, using animal carcasses, failed completely....
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I have seen wounds like that in person, and not on test animals. If you had any doubt that 5.56 can make wacky internal wounds of horrifying severity, let me assure you--they can. If you had doubts that it can make a wound that looks like a sword wound or something that goes up the leg if someone gets hit in the ankle...I can personally vouch this not only can, but has indeed happened.
Tony Williams
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I don't doubt that can happen but not, it seems, all that often.
This is the contrary view, which confirms my recollections: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/t...am_ki.html
After describing the impressive claims from early Vietnam trials:
Quote:some in DoD requested that these results be duplicated scientifically. The Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory at Edgewood Arsenal attempted to do just that. Using .223 caliber Remington ammunition provided by Colt's representative, they conducted their 'standard lethality trials that consisted of measuring the cavitational and other effects of firing at known distances into blocks of ballistic gelatin, and where necessary, anaesthetized goats.' They failed to duplicate the explosive effects reported by Project AGILE. In November 1962, the Army initiated 'Worldwide' tactical and technical tests of the AR15 using U. S. soldiers.
Edgewood was tasked to perform further lethality tests using modified .223 caliber ammunition. Ezell and Stevens describe the modifications: 'They had modified some 55grain .223 caliber ball bullets of Remington manufacture by cutting approximately 1/4 inch off the nose and drilling a 3/32inchdiameter hole about 1/4 inch deep into the lead core of each bullet.' The results? The authors continue, 'As it turned out, even the hollowpoints failed to duplicate anything like the spectacular effects recorded by the Vietnamese unit commanders and their American advisors, which had subsequently been taken as fact and much used as propaganda.
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10-12-2013, 04:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2013, 04:27 PM by montana.)
I have posted this on this forum before but I think it explains a lot about wound ballistics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-...re=related
WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES
Barnes bullet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf4_5S_J6...ata_player
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10-12-2013, 04:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2013, 04:41 PM by KentuckyBuddha.)
My experience is a comically tiny sample size for sure. However, it begs the question, if it is so rare for things like that to happen...why did the Soviets change up their projectiles when they saw those wounds in Vietnam over a massive sample?
Anecdotal evidence on tiny game or tiny people can give results that can skew perceptions as well. Shoot an unarmored normal sized military age male in the chest with a .223, it is quite likely to give him a bad day. It isn't my preference to have in a fight (which I certainly hope more than anything shall never happen again). But, it will work well enough by any reasonable standard, which is why NATO has kept it this long and why the Soviet's went to the AK 74 when they saw the wounds it caused I imagine.
I have sent that same video to several people also Montana, it is definitely informative.
I think the Soviets went to the 5.45x39 because of logistics more than terminal performance. The 5.45 projectiles are better profiled for exterior ballistics, but the debate about terminal is equally active there among Russian military vets.
I personally like 5.45 over 7.62x39 for carrying capacity, and it shoots flat.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:I think the Soviets went to the 5.45x39 because of logistics more than terminal performance. The 5.45 projectiles are better profiled for exterior ballistics, but the debate about terminal is equally active there among Russian military vets.
I personally like 5.45 over 7.62x39 for carrying capacity, and it shoots flat.
It is definitely more accurate too.
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This is where I got that impression from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jsMyg9NwBc start at 30:30 if you are only interested in the AK 74 stuff.
I should have known better than to not dump everything I learned on the History channel.
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KentuckyBuddha Wrote:This is where I got that impression from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jsMyg9NwBc start at 30:30 if you are only interested in the AK 74 stuff.
I should have known better than to not dump everything I learned on the History channel.
This is why we have a forum to discuss opinions and learned knowledge. I remember watching that series on the History channel and enjoyed watching them. It is sad the format on the History channel has changed so much.
I think the Soviets went to the 5.45x39 because some socialist in the government thought it was a better idea to piss off an enemy than kill him.
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montana Wrote:It is sad the format on the History channel has changed so much. What is even sadder is how the SciFi channel has changed...  
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stanc Wrote:What is even sadder is how the SciFi channel has changed...
Yeah - what's up with showing Wrestling on SciFi?
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