02-27-2014, 07:40 PM
cory Wrote:No, no, no that's not what I mean. When a casual shooter/hunter starts looking into a non traditional round, what's the first thing they compare? Muzzle Velocity. We all know that's a mute point with the 6.5's ballistics, the casual shooter/hunter doesn't know that. If that MV can turn someone to the Grendel as opposed to another round, that's another potential customer for the major ammo manufacturers.
That's what it'll take to bring the Winchesters and other guys online with the Grendel, X# of potential customers.
I'm in non way saying we push the Grendel to magnum pressures (65ksi). I'm only suggesting the 58ksi, which would make it still safe for hand loaders to load to ~60ksi with only a shortened bolt life. Which I don't even know if 60ksi would be possible with current powder selection and the Grendel's max powder capacity.
If an ammo manufacturer were to offer rounds in that pressure (58ksi), and a box of that ammo was put into the original AR15 design by mistake the weapon would be fine assuming the weapon was built properly. It would take a significant amount of bad decisions to see the problems you mention. What would likely happen is we'd see +P Grendel ammo.
More choices for the Grendel horde, how is this a bad thing?
We already do not have the powder in order to meet existing factory velocities by hand loading I would be happy just getting one of the Grendel powders onto the market and leave the pressure where it is, rather than trying to get a super Grendel bolt on the market which I think would actual lead to more ham than good, the Grendel is already a bit of a bolt breaker iwith people chasing factory velocity adding 100 fps to that goal is not going to do anything but tarnish the reputation of a great round, it's funny that people seem to accept velocity limitations in some cases and not others
The 45-70 comes to mind the round is one of the oldest rounds still loaded today and has been pushed well beyond its original intentions oddly enough is not really like original black powder loadings lacked killing power there were cases with more capacity but they were developed to add range for people who wanted to get a few more yards between themselves and the 2000 pound buffalo they were shooting but other than the express loading of 45-90 used in the 1886 Winchester anything bigger was single shot and has fallen by the wayside, given modern metals and stronger designs from the trapdoor rifle the 45-70 was designed to go into with the advent of smokeless powder
If you look up load data you will see data for trap door, lever and ruger, truth is in a strong gun you can load the 45-70 up until your shoulder says mercy which is why all the bigger cases have gone away you don't need 70% more capacity than the 45-70 in order to kill just about anything that walks the earth, but the big three load and sell 45-70 at trapdoor pressures hornady has the leverlution load and there is buffalo bore but they are only slightly pushing the envelope and put all sorts of warnings on the package, it was enough of a popularity thing that marlin and hornady teamed up to make the 450 marlin which is basically a liability proof 45-70+P but it didn't really catch on and the 45-70 is still top of the heap when it comes to a lever gun anyway
That being said you don't see a whole lot of people pushing the 30-30 into something it isn't another example of what the big 3 will and won't do is the 8mm Mauser it will easily throw a 150 gr bullet to 2900fps, 180 to 2700 and a 200 to 2600 all having around 3000 pounds of energy it easily matches a 30-06 and actually exceeds it in the heavy bullet performance but the big 3 loading of 8mm mauser are relegated to 30-30 performance because the gew88 rifle which has a 318 bore as opposed to a 323 bore and was was rated at a lower pressure being designed in 1888 at the very cusp of smokeless powder making it potentially dangerous to allow full power rounds designed for the 1998 action for sale, European loadings are available which provide full performance hornady and nosler both offer a respectable load for the round if you can find it but the big 3 all load a 170 gr bullet to 2360fps
Basically hot rodding a round will not serve to attract manufactors to a product, you may succeed in attracting lawyers but that won't much help the cause
What would be useful is getting the weight of a large arms manufacture behind the round producing mass marketed and functional ar15s nation wide like the 6.8 and also putting a few bolt guns into the mix obviously the MVP comes to mind but a more traditional hunting rifle with standard 5 rd fixed magazine would probably be even better especially if we could get it in a micro action so we could have a reasonably priced readily available to the masses 6 pound hunting rifle with mild recoil capable of taking game out to 400 yards which is farther than many people will ever even point a gun at a target if you get that gun to market for under 800 with a steady supply and you might get your market boom, not every one wants to hunt with an ar15 or msr or whatever you want to call it even if they can and you think they should...
And even if the Grendel bolt gun comes to market it will need to compete even more with the likes of the 260 and 6.5 creedmore it's not like factory ammo is going to be a deciding factor at that point would you pay $1.50 more for an extra 400 fps compared to the Grendel so all you really have is rifle weight and recoil as a bargaining chip in the whole scheme of things and honestly the weight is not that big a factor the micro action will only shave a few ounces off the build wieght compared to a short action so then there is recoil which still isn't much
But if we could get the availability of the 6.8 ammo I would be thrilled http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&i...hscope=all but I still want Winchester to do a load for the Grendel based on midwayusa list they have not jumped upon the 6.8 bandwagon yet
Punctuation is for the weak....