08-12-2013, 09:23 PM
LRRPF52 Wrote:Velocity will vary from barrel to barrel, even from consecutive barrels from the same manufacturer machined on the same tooling. Midway usually expects a 50% margin on their products, so do the math based on their pricing and you can get an idea of where they might be sourcing the "AR-Stoner" pipes from.
When I see a lot of their 5.56 barrels for $159.99, $119.99, or even $104.99, then figure-in even a 30% margin, there's no way those barrels are made in the US or Western/Central/Northern Europe. We're either looking at Central America or Asia is my best guess. Try to market a product to any of the big online distributors with 30% margins and see where that gets you, then ask yourself what margins they are going for on their own product line (at least 50%).
The next question I have for myself is, if they are willing to source barrels from Asia for 5.56, are they doing the same thing for the "6.5 Grendel" AR-Stoner barrels, and just upping the margins to 300% since they know they will fly off the shelf before they can even get them in, regardless if the leade in the chamber is short and definitely not a Grendel chamber?
Does that mean they are automatically crappy barrels? Not at all. Elisco Tool Manufacturing Company of the Philippines has been making M16 barrels and components for decades, originally under license contract from US State Dept./Colt. I'm the type of consumer who likes to know these things, but there is no way Midway is going to unzip the lip about where their AR-Stoner brand barrels and other parts are sourced from.
If anyone doubts that Asian barrels and AR15 parts are in the market, I've seen Dirtier than Cheap openly advertise $99 "M4" barrels in their catalog, and have seen distributor online catalog pages for AR15 parts, including sub-standard uppers, BCG's, LPK's, fasteners, etc. from Taiwan. If you go crack open your upper and look at your BCG, most of your carrier key fasteners will say "YFS" on them, which means the fasteners were manufactured in Taiwan, and are not anywhere near spec for USGI domestic mfg Grade 8 fasteners. With the right assembly procedures and tools, you can still achieve a long-lasting and reliable gas key seal with them, but the threads vary more in dia. towards the smaller side than USGI domestic mfg Grade 8 fasteners.
Same goes for carrier keys and every other part in the AR15. There are precious few AR15's on the market that have anything close to what's in a true Mil-Spec gun as far as materials selection, manufacturing processes, QC'ing and inspecting, and proofing goes.
I guess the thing that bothers me about the AR-Stoner barrels is that they are clearly not using a Grendel reamers based on the measurements several forum members have posted with regard to maximum COL (the leade is shorter), but they still feel that it's ok to advertise them as such, when the Grendel chamber is a SAAMI spec and any huge outfit like Midway can invest in Grendel reamers like the next guy.
The main thing is to be aware of your variant chamber's limitations, and load your COL and charges based on that. I still wish they would just have whatever sweat shop that is cranking these out at least use a Grendel reamer.
Pretty harsh statement. I just had to go look at the MIDWAY site to clear my head on that. Midway sells Shilen, JP Rifle, Noveske, AR-Stoner, Adams-Arms and all with bolts. If you search just barrels you find all of those plus Krieger, DPMS, Del-Ton and more.
As for the CHEAP AR-Stoners in 223, $104.00 was the cheapest one without a bolt as you said. Next was a DPMS, VooDoo ??, Model 1 and a couple more but back to higher prices, above $200 and name brand.
I have seen regular ol $50 M4 barrels on other sites and not sure of there reputation or source. Asian or South American, maybe but its a led slinger for 50 to 100 feet. worth it.
So calling Midway out like that I feel is pretty unfair and sometimes they get defective parts from there sources. I saw the post about the NibX bolt I think you got so is that another reason for bad feelings toward Midway? Guess you can feel how you want. Stating the source location without proof is not good conduct, but I guess an opinion as you said this is yours. A lot of people look up to your opinion on this site which makes it a bias statement. Do you have stock in Brownells could be a question to some??
My Stoner Grendel shoots great to me but I'm not you and I also didn't spend +$500 on a Shilen, JP Rifle or Noveske. Speaking to reliable source I think the AR-Stoner is a Liberty because a Grendel distributor told me that. When I called him and said I have an AR-Stoner 24" Barrel and bolt, he said, did it come in a white box with 3 red stripes of packing tape? I said yes. He said look at the marking, is it 5R, I said yes. He said he just received his shipment of Liberty Barrels and they are in the same package and marked just the same.
Not in a Chinese bamboo crate or South of the border burlap bag.
As for Midway using Grendel Reamers, they are a distributor and use nothing, so if there supplier is using incorrect machinery tools then they need to know so they can notify there supplier to make sure they meet SAAMI spec. If they get them from Liberty, it is Liberties responsibility to use the correct SAAMI spec. Who's to say any of this is true unless it is sent to a third part certified machine/gun shop. They can contact Midway directly to resolve these accusations. Now I'm taking my brand new unfired Grendel AR-Stoner to a Gunsmith down the road, I live in Norther VA and there are hundreds, and they are going to check the measurements. If they are off, I will be contacting Midway and follow up.
Again, pretty harsh comment. Now I'm going to find out the correct information and document it.
Thats what I THINK!!