02-14-2012, 03:47 PM
leopard6.5 Wrote:vfrdrvr: Here's what Bill A. posted in another thread:
As stated by Bill A. there is a difference and I don't understand why people keep trying to defend other chambers by saying they are the same.
They are not the same.
Thanks Lee. I've seen most to all of this before, but it's good to refresh. To be honest, I've been wanting to enter the Grendel since the early days of the old web site. The reason I didn't was the amount of drama surrounding the availability/proprietary nature of the design in years past.
I never said they're the same. Obviously, they're not. What I said was, the differences as I understand them (having never seen a reamer print for the Grendel) are .004 to .005 in the neck, and a 1.5 degree as opposed to compound throat. A previous poster was concerned he'd have to start reloading because he had an lbc chamber and, I guess, thought he couldn't shoot Grendel dimensioned ammo. That's just not true. The dies are the same. The ammo dimensions are the same. To be sure, if ammo makers get sloppy or you use cheap laquered steel case stuff you may have problems, but that's true of some 5.56/.223 chambers as well.
Quote:Whether the differences are consequential or not has never been the question but when a buyer, especially a new to the Grendel buyer wants a Grendel, calling other things a Grendel isn't ethical.
No argument here. I can't for the life of me understand why Midway called them Grendels. However, I don't think it's a bait and switch.
Quote:Some of these buyers may be very inexperienced shooter who end up having problems, like when the Hornady ammo came out, and don't know why.
They can get frustrated or worse injured and end up blaming the Grendel and Bill A. when the blame rests elsewhere.
I think it's especially hurtful and dishonest when a buyer( see Cbubac's posts above) thinks they are getting the SAAMI spec. chamber and they end up with something else.
Until a few weeks ago there was no SAMMI spec chamber. I don't know what the source of the disagreements between AA and Satern, Baer and others were. Frankly, I'm not persuaded by the "purity of the design" argument. I've been around shooting for a while and I don't recall that much drama in a long time. I wish things had gone differently, my first 6.5 AR would have been a 'true' Grendel. They didn't and it wasn't.
Quote:They should just be truthful and say they are trying to benefit from someone elses work and be honest with their customers.
I can't help but think this is the major part of the problem. AA wanted to capitalize on their work. They are certainly entitled to do so. What ensued, though, turned a lot of folks off - myself among them.
Quote:I'm glad that all this stuff other than the headspacing( and this is a pretty consequential issue especially for buyers that don't reload) is inconsequential to you but you aren't the only buyer and it is important to others and they have the right to get honest information.
Why is headspacing an issue especially for those who don't reload? If I have it right if HS is tight a spec round won't chamber and if it's too loose you're asking for a head separation. The first is a pain, the latter is, well, really bad.
Quote:The headspacing issue has been causing problems for people who post here and on the older forum for years and it never should have been an issue for anyone if the Grendel chamber had been used or if the variations had been fully explained so people would know what they are getting instead of being told it is the same( as in identical which it isn't).
Again, no argument here. The lbc, the 6.5 sporter, and the new ARP offering are not, in the absolute sense, Grendels. By the same token, they seem to be closer kin than the 5.56 nato and .223, and that's pretty close. The difference in the 5.56 and .223 has proven manageable. I suspect this will, too.
I knew going in I was getting a variation on the design and it was a variation I wanted. The bolt/headspacing stuff was a bit of a curveball, but one that's managable. I'm still working up loads for mine, but it'll put 5 rounds of 123 A-max into about .5" at 100 and do almost that well with 108 Scenars (I think it will do better with the Scenars if I spring for a better seating die - my hdy die doesn't want to seat them to consistent lengths). So all-in-all, I'm a happy camper.
Quote:All this being said, Good luck with your shooting and it's good to have you here.
Lee
And, again, thanks,
Jim