stanc Wrote:I do wish this bit of historical revisionism could be killed off. The M27 was not adopted as a backdoor replacement for the M4.
It was impossible, because the M27 was adopted five years before the M4 became the primary individual weapon for infantry.
2004 Marine Corps Gazette article on the automatic rifle concept: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=5289
Yeah, probably should have said M16/M4 platform. We'll never know...
BluntForceTrauma Wrote:So what I'm hearing is: "We need a belt-fed SAW because only it can provide sustained, short-bursts of accurate suppressive fire vs. a mag-fed auto rifle based on an assault rifle platform."
Which boils down to: "Multiple mag changes disrupt a gunner's concentration on targets and thus degrades his accuracy, his effectiveness."
I don't see platform stability, use of bipods, or better optics as prohibitive in an IAR, and thus is not really a differentiating factor.
Yeah, I guess. Don't think the heavier SAW could be more stable in burst fire than an IAR??? Same for bursts, let's say both are really good at 3-4 round bursts. Going to be doing mag changes every 7-10 bursts with an IAR. VS 35-70 bursts per belt? Guess it depends on mission, movement, etc. But I'm having a hard time seeing those as a wash.
So we are gun hobbiests. Interested in the technology, etc. Conjecture on pros and cons, because it's an interesting topic of conversation and speculation. (and it is, not trying to shut down discussion)
They (The guys who use the SAWs) are focused on missions, capabilities, results. Which they own and live. And based on that, when I ask, they are a bit baffled by the Marine's focus on the M27 and the anti SAW. But will admit they don't fully understand Marine method, etc. They have different platoon & company structure, etc. Maybe different tactics.
Some of it I do believe is Army IN doctrine, but that's hammered into them. Some of it is physical reality. If you pull a SAW from a platoon, what do you replace it with? what can it do. What's the value add, whats the drawback? How do you use it in overwatch? Movement to Contact? Defense on a reverse slope? other scenarios they have to plan and execute.
And based on that... the whole concept is not something that fixes any problem they have. So even though they are young pups, I have to trust the judgement of my Army IN officer son, as he's been hands on and running teams with these in a front line, respected IN ABN unit. And in Ranger school and similar prior to that. He and every peer completed Ranger School. His CO is from Ranger Regiment, as is his 1SG and past PSG. Significant deployments in his teams and leaders. They live in the world that uses these tools.
Again, don't mean to kill the conversation. Just that I find the credibility of the author a bit light and the general points a bit recycled.
Unfortunately, similar discussions about Grendel, Grendel LMG, 7.62 rifles, and similar head down the same path. I'm a Grendel fan, believe it's the best compromise AR-15/M-16 cartridge. But also recognize the logistical challenge that will make it virtually impossible for the US Army to move to it. But also see that a smaller country (Serbia?) could do so.
I will admit I was a bit surprised to find support for the SAW given it's somewhat checkered history, etc. But what I'm hearing is it's still a valued tool. And maybe a bit maligned.
My personal conjecture is we won't see much change in this space until a breakthru in caseless or similar changes the whole paradigm. Changing LMG ammo without a matching change in carbine I don't think will happen. Not enough numbers/advantages in changing the crew served MG's to something like Grendel.
Do I think Grendel would have been a better light cartridge when the M16 was initially being developed? Of course. But too much inertia vs any potentially gains to revisit that now for mainstream units. Special folks can use what they want anyway, so if it was a big advantage I think we'd be seeing/hearing more on it.
I'll say this: I'd love to have an M27. And would love to shoot one. And one in Grendel would be cool as well. :-)