Mutt Wrote:My experience has always been that if you can train yourself to perform the same act over and over again, you will develop muscle memory and a natural point of aim. This was very important when night shooting. You couldn't always get a perfect sight picture. But, if you were comfortable that you are on target by using your natural point of aim, then you can move on to positively identifying the target.
From my point of view, learning the basics and developing muscle memory allows you to "get" that sight picture easier. If you put your body and gun in the right position every time (if that is possible ... depending on circumstances), it will be right where you need it to be to get a good sight picture.
The process that LR1955 is describing is fine, I'm not disagreeing ...... but it appears that he is coaching shooters that already know how to shoot. I'm sure it is easier for bwaites to get that sight picture he needs than a new shooter with no expercience. bwaites already knows what feels right and when he is in a good shooting stance. That's half the game. If you already developed the ability to perform a given task (sighting in to shoot) with repitition, then you can move on to fine tuning the rest.
When I initially brought up "muscle memory" in the first thread, it was in response to a person asking how we shoulder our rifle. I assumed that person was a new shoooter (I could be wrong). I talked about how I would teach a person how to hold and operate the gun and then encourage them to practice the basics and try to develope muscle memory for those tasks. LRRPF52 asked what our deffinitions of muscle memory where, and the muscle memory threads were born. LR1955 is talking about visual memory which is a whole different animal. Muscle memory is teaching your mind/body to remember how to do a task by repeating that task over and over until it becomes a natural movement. I believe that LR1955 is talking about memorizing (visually) what a good sight picture is and shooting when you see what you have memorized ..... but I could be wrong. LR1955 says that by concentrating on the sight picture, the trigger pull will take care of itself. But, I stand on the concept that the trigger pull can only take care of itself if you teach your body to do it correctly. And, train your body to remember how to do it correctly by doing it over and over again. Muscle memory is just a term commonly used to describe this and shouldn't be confused with visual memory.
Mutt:
Yes, the sight picture is visual memory. However, when you ask someone to maintain that sight picture through the shot, the action becomes physical. If the sight picture moves, the individual will take physical steps to get it back again.
I have another saying which is train the body to point the rifle (position), and condition the finger to move when the eyes see (sight picture).
Of these two actions, I doubt anyone can get into a position that points the barrel to much better than about a 90 percent.
Here is one that you and others here can do. I do this when on ranges that allow it and it is fun, very enlightening when it comes to the importance of some training concepts over others, and also has the benefit of allowing someone to really focus their attention.
Stand in front of a CQC target at ten yards. Rehearse your ready up thing for a few minutes to ensure you have the very best of positions.
Blind fold yourself, bring your carbine to the low ready and relax for a minute or two. Then focus yourself in again and while blind folded, bring the carbine up and fire a controlled pair at that full upper torso E-Sil sitting 30 feet away that you just rehearsed on.
Or, you can go to the point of firing and have someone remove the blind fold. Or just close your eyes and open them when you think your carbine is in a perfect position (sights brought to the eyes and barrel pointed at that target. Since the target is 20" wide and 40" tall, we are talking muscle memory along being able to hold to within about 90 or 100 minutes of angle.
That normally changes the views of guys who up until that point were huge proponents of incessant ready up drills. They normally get one or maybe two hits out of ten controlled pairs.
This is not to say that you don't practice position. Only that it may pay more to focus on conditioning the finger to move when the eye sees than to do incessant physical drills.
As for trigger pull -- lets see.... Even with that lousy trigger on a M-4, a person must move their finger about a half an inch against about nine pounds of pressure. With some of the Grendels guys have on the forum with two stage triggers, they have to move their finger about 1/8 of an inch against five pounds.
It isn't them pulling the trigger that causes problems. It is them shifting attention away from what must be done to shoot well just before and during the trigger pull that is normally the problem. Keep their attention focused on one single thing they know they can do and trigger pull really does get executed without conscious thought.
Again, it depends on how one wants to expend his or her resources. Particularly the resource of training time.
So, I don't really care how the guy pulls the trigger, which finger he uses, what part of the finger is used, etc. As long as the act of pulling the trigger does not disrupt the sight picture, the trigger pull is fine. If it does disrupt the sight picture, it is because attention shifted from maintaining the sight picture towards something else. That is providing someone believes that humans are capable of self regulating while performing an action.
This one can go on for a while. Time to start a new thread.
LR55