Doctrine and why the Grendel has an uphill battle.

[LRRPF52]

The Last Big Lie of Vietnam Kills U.S. Soldiers in Iraq (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/...am_ki.html) ---

People don't instantly die when you shoot them in the chest, no matter the caliber. Charles Beckwith took 12.7mm heavy machine-gun fire to the torso and lived, which exceeds the terminal energy and speed of every elephant rifle ever made. Chargin' Charlie went on to form a unit you might have heard of later in his career.


This is incorrect. The steel penetrator in M855 is not Tungsten. It's non-hardened, mild steel for cutting through Soviet armor of the era, as well as light-skinned vehicles. Works as advertised, kills people all day long if you make your hits. There are anecdotal accounts of 7.62 NATO hitting people and not doing anything. One particular Marine Scout Sniper shot an Iraqi kid (armed with an AK) at somewhere around 400-600m, and later ran into the kid at an Enemy Prisoner of War collection point. He had seen the impact of the bullet on the kid's chest, then saw the kid run away. He examined this kid several days later, found the scars indicating through-and-through the chest, which apparently missed everything vital it should have destroyed. Kid acted like it was cool. The guy wanted to adopt this kid and bring him to the US, but was denied.


.45 ACP is nowhere near as effective as 5.56 NATO. These were arguments being made in favor of a new cartridge. After investigating these issues, SF determined that people needed more marksmanship training, and instituted the SFAUCC program at the Group level. People advocating for 6.8 SPC were escorted off post when they continued to try to sway people to a cartridge solution.


[COLOR="#0000FF"]More bad information that is simply false. The commercial .223 Remington cartridge did not exist before .222 Remington Special, which was a lengthened .222 Remington for the SCHV project. To the best of my knowledge, and Stan might want to chime in on this with his vast references and collection of cartridges and knowledge to support it, the .223 Remington wasn't even produced for the commercial market until 1964, after being developed in the early 1960s (1962 IIRC). 5.56x45 (the military formalized and updated cartridge from .222 Remington Special) came from the late 1950s. The AR15 prototype series was introduced in 1957, and development of the .222 Remington into .222 Remington Special took place simultaneously.

Experienced soldiers in Reconnaissance units in both the USMC and US Army loved the 5.56x45 M193, even from short barrels. Same with US Army SF. Terminal performance in Project AGILE was very impressive, as were the body counts of these units compared to the units they worked for.[/COLOR]

My responses in blue above.

There's a great discussion about this in the Primary & Secondary videos, particularly from senior enlisted USASOC/JSOC soldiers who used M16A1/M193, M16A2/M855, M4A1/M855, M4A1 SOST, M4A1 Mk.262, and other loads in real-world conflicts dating from Grenada to the present. They pointed out that we had no problem stacking enemy corpses like corkwood with any of the combinations I mentioned, and that video analysis of the events in Mogadishu show the guys who complained about M855 not killing anyone documented them missing repeatedly, with dust kicking up behind the Somalis, whereas video of the Somalis being actually shot showed very quick terminal effects.

In Grenada as part of Urgent Fury, 1/75 and 2/75, as well as SFOD, slayed a lot of Cubans and Grenadian military with 5.56, no complaints. Same thing in Panama. Ranger Regiment and SFOD had no complaints about terminal performance of M855. All of a sudden, one guy in Mogadishu selectively quoted by Mark Bowden says M855 zips right through the enemy, doesn't work. This is then taken as gospel, and spread throughout the gun world like wildfire.

I know my experiences are anecdotal, but everyone I've seen shot with M855 from short barrels mostly, died or was torn apart with avulsions, insane bone fragmentation, massive blood loss, and very permanent injuries that changed their lives if they survived. The ones that survived only did so because we provided world-class first aid and echelons of care for them, with readily available RBCs and experienced surgeons to repair what could be repaired in a timely manner.

Unless you brain-punch a moon ape, there are no guarantees for an instant kill, and quickly dying combatants are still a lethal threat to be dealt with. Good units structure their marksmanship training accordingly. Amateurs look for a new gadget to compensate for the fact that they aren't even addressing the main problem of training. I can issue out the latest and greatest super AR15 chambered in 6mm Grendel even, with a .600 G1 BC explosive armor-penetrator bullet going 2800fps, and most of the units still won't be able to hit a silhouette in combat at 200m on demand because Commanders simply don't take marksmanship training seriously.