264LBC Max OAL and Accuracy Comparison

[cory]

If y'all with the 264LBC chambers wouldn't mind sharing your measured max OAL/ method of measurement and any comparison in accuracy from the 123gr AMAX/SST/SMK to other bullets like the scenars, I'd appreciate it.

The fraud Constructor is going around spewing his garbage and have the nerve (on another forum) to try and intimidate me through a PM.

I'm just trying to get a source for real world data to provide clear indisputable facts.

[LRRPF52]

He sent me a threatening PM here before we banned him, saying he could make things very difficult for HANKA, bwaites, me and Bill Alexander, as if there was some type of professional connection between us all, which didn't make any sense. Save the PM screenshot, as all my PM's were conveniently wiped out with the last attack.

I didn't even know where he was coming from with it, as I had not mentioned him in any of the discussions I could think of. It's very unpredictable behavior, and the threats seem to be followed with real attacks on the forum.

[Adam Lilja]

On the hide?

[NugginFutz]

Adam - the exchange appeared over at M4carbine. The mod there hosed them down for pulling an Oprah. Pretty much the same thing I've seen from woohoo/constructor, whenever he wants to thump his chest.

Cory,

In May, this year, I measured my BHW 264LBC for COAL for the 123 gr Amax. The barrel had 980 rounds through it, at the time.

Using the Sinclair tool, I came up with 2.272" COAL. My Hornady LNL comparator gave me 2.277" COAL. I suspect the extra .005" has to do with the use of the Hornady special case, coupled with the light "seating tap" I applied when pushing the bullet into position.

ETA: Since it is the only pill this barrel has ever shot, I can't offer any accuracy comparisons, but I've posted a few examples of what it can do. On average, it will give me .5 to .75 MOA. When I avoid coffee and donuts, it will drill it.

[rickOshay]

Nuggin - Your data is very close to what I measure in my new Lilja 18" for the AMAX - 2.273". What do you get for COAL using the Hornady LNL and the 123 SST?

[NugginFutz]

Nuggin - Your data is very close to what I measure in my new Lilja 18" for the AMAX - 2.273". What do you get for COAL using the Hornady LNL and the 123 SST?

Regrettably, the 123 SST's I had were traded to someone in desperate need for their upcoming hunt before I thought to measure. I have some factory loads, though. Given some more time, I can pull one and see.

[pinzgauer]

The fraud Constructor is going around spewing his garbage and have the nerve (on another forum) to try and intimidate me through a PM.

I'm just trying to get a source for real world data to provide clear indisputable facts.

A bit sad... the original poster never got a reasonable answer before the food throwing started. Was completely silly, especially given M4C is focused on hard use carbines, not bench guns.

This is why we (grendel shooters) can't have nice things. Someone asks about Grendel, and a firefight quoting 7 year old history erupts over nuances that only someone wanting to sell custom barrels/reamers would care about.

At least we now know that Constructor makes $170k a year, and Atlanta would fall down if it was not for his insight. :-) (I'm guessing he's an ME???)

[cory]

Well it was over at m4carbine, but he's jumped over to the hide. He's like a child screaming at the top of his lungs for a little attention. He has some serious little man issues. Check out these PM he sent me over at the hide.

That thread you just started on the grendel forum. Both of you are complete ******* idiots.
I've already proved Paul is a lying *****. Wind it up ***** lets play

I did clean it up a bit. Some of that isn't appropriate here.

If this guy only knew the entertainment he's providing. I can't help but sit here and laugh at him.

[bigbear_98]

I hate that this cartridge can't be mentioned without a mud slinging contest. It really puts a black eye on the cartridge.

[jurassic]

I hate that this cartridge can't be mentioned without a mud slinging contest. It really puts a black eye on the cartridge.

I totally agree.

[JASmith]

A bit sad... the original poster never got a reasonable answer before the food throwing started. Was completely silly, especially given M4C is focused on hard use carbines, not bench guns.

This is why we (grendel shooters) can't have nice things. Someone asks about Grendel, and a firefight quoting 7 year old history erupts over nuances that only someone wanting to sell custom barrels/reamers would care about.

At least we now know that Constructor makes $170k a year, and Atlanta would fall down if it was not for his insight. :-) (I'm guessing he's an ME???)

Here's the link if anyone wants a painful read:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?...rade-build

Firefight -- Very nicely captures the underlying issue. Someone's ego was bruised because he did not understand the design parameters stated for the Grendel and did not have the honor to accept being wrong.

I saw his post about bridges and buildings falling. I think that would suggest a Civil Engineer's training. Again, few people care about the nuances (see above) but there is a rather significant gulf between the mindset of CEs and MEs. The gulf is even greater (in attitude at least) between both of them and other hard sciences like physics and chemistry. In truth, all of these specialties have a range of folks running from the genuinely curious and mentally flexible to those who know only one way of doing things.

How do I know this? I was trained in college as an ME but spent my entire career (8 years in the AF notwithstanding) in a multi-discipline research and advanced development environment.

[NugginFutz]

Nuggin - Your data is very close to what I measure in my new Lilja 18" for the AMAX - 2.273". What do you get for COAL using the Hornady LNL and the 123 SST?

Well, this weekend I pulled one of the SST's from a factory cartridge and measured COAL for my 264LBC from BHW. I also re-measured the Amax, so the readings would be apples to apples, in terms of round count. After an additional 900 rounds down the pipe, the Amax now measures 2.303" COAL, with the SST coming in at 2.307", as measured with the LNL comparator. I only measured the one SST, whereas I averaged three different Amax's.

If I extrapolate the data backwards to the 980 round count, the SST would have measured ~2.276", compared to the Amax's 2.272".

[LRRPF52]

With the Stoney Point/LNL gauges, keep in mind that it's very easy to not get a full seat into the chamber like we do with a full bolt cycle into battery.

[cory]

With the Stoney Point/LNL gauges, keep in mind that it's very easy to not get a full seat into the chamber like we do with a full bolt cycle into battery.

Are you referring to the brass or the bullet? So are you saying that the actual Max OAL is really longer or shorter?

[LRRPF52]

Are you referring to the brass or the bullet? So are you saying that the actual Max OAL is really longer or shorter?

The brass case does not seat the same way as it does when you slam the BCG forward on inertia. If you tap the brass part of the gauge into the chamber with a rod or dowel, then you can get a better reading. COL's will register a bit longer without an inertia seat. That is the main problem to overcome with the LNL gauge.

[NugginFutz]

Here are my thoughts on the LNL system:

Seating the LNL "special" case can only be accomplished by "ramming it home", and then possibly seated more firmly with a slight twist. It's also possible to seat the case with a light tap on the holding tube. Does this approximate a bolt slamming a case into battery? Probably not. But it should not matter that much, as the case does not compress into the chamber, and can (should) be held firmly in the chamber while establishing the bullet seating depth.

My concern about the LNL lies in a different area, though. I am not comfortable with the Hornady-provided case being used as part the final measurement. That is because it is not a fire formed case, which is what we all end up reloading (past the first loading of new brass). Most of the people I've heard from who've posted their findings have reported some case lengthening, even after resizing, over the factory fresh case length (as measured to the shoulder datum line). This means that the Hornady LNL case will render COAL numbers a few thousandths shorter than if a fire-formed case had been used.

Is this a distinction with a difference? It's difficult to say so, with 100% certainty, but the difference is there, unless you always resize your fired brass to match the Hornady LNL case within .001" or .002".

This is one of the reasons why I've begun using the Sinclair tool, which relies on a fired case for its measurements. Although the case is seated in much the same way as with the LNL tool, it was formed in the target chamber and has a more accurate overall case length (again, as measured to the shoulder datum line).

The only other method I am aware of to determine COAL involves a tool similar to the kit that Franklin Arsenal provides, and utilizes no case at all. It involves a cleaning rod or suitable replacement, a couple of rod clamps, and is used to first measure the face of the closed bolt, and then again to the projectile in the bore. This method, however, does not account for headspace. Again, one can ask if this is this a distinction without a difference?

Any way you stack it, though, choose one method and don't mix your results. When you get your COAL, common practice is to start at least .020" off the lands, and your groups will tell you what the rifle likes. If you find yourself approaching the max COAL, caution should be exercised and pressure/velocity should be carefully monitored.

THAT is my story and I'm sticking to it.

[bigbear_98]

I've noticed and thought about what you are saying Nuggin. I posted something about it a while back but don't always explain myself well and no one ever responded about it.

In my experience, the brass gets bigger than the chamber as it is extracted in a gas gun. I have to bump it down to get it to fit back in the chamber.

I personally played with this in a 223. I sized the brass, tried to chamber, resize, chamber, etc etc until it fit and extracted smoothly. I then bumped it a a few thousandths more. The rounds fit in a wilson gauge. The case is always bigger than the hornady piece.

It's extreme in my bolt rifle. The chamber is much longer than the hornady piece and I only bump the fired brass .003" when resizing. If I used the LNL it wouldn't be anywhere near where I need to be.

[LRRPF52]

Great points gents. Somehow, I have been able to get along just fine by using my chamber as my gauge, which was advice I also noticed from LR1955.

It's more of a pain to load dummy cases long, color them, then see where the lands are, but it doesn't lie to you that way.

[bigbear_98]

That's what I have done with 3 different bolt guns (22-250, 308, 270.), but after I started reading about the LNL, I thought it would be a good tool. It has its uses, but I don't use it now.

[rickOshay]

Nuggin - you can send Hornady fired brass and they will make the gauge for you. If I remember right, they charged me $15 to make the LNL case from my brass.